den; and that would be to the interest, as a rule, of the stockmen themselves.

Mr. MANN. Perhaps you do not eat veal and lamb chops. They are very popular at my house.

Mr. KENNEDY. We are not dependent on the veal cutlets from calves that are taken away from their mothers when they can not eat or drink, and that are kept several days on the journey and are scarcely alive when they reach their destination.

The CHAIRMAN. The time for adjournment has arrived. (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock, the committee adjourned.)

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE AND FOREIGN COMMERCE,

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
Tuesday morning, February 20,

TWENTY-EIGHT-HOUR LAW.

1906.

STATEMENT OF M. P. BUEL, OF THE CHICAGO LIVE STOCK EXCHANGE.

Mr. BUEL was sworn by the chairman.

The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Hepburn). Please state your name and address.

Mr. BUEL. My name is M. P. Buel, and my address is Chicago, Ill. The CHAIRMAN. What is your business?

Mr. BUEL. I am, here representing the Chicago Live Stock Exchange, which is an organization made up of the shippers, feeders, and commission merchants, who organized this body with a membership of 700, representing, as we do, the largest market in the world. The CHAIRMAN. Will you please state your business?

Mr. BUEL. My business is that of a commission merchant, a handler of live stock that is consigned to us by these various producers. In addition to that I own cattle and ship cattle myself, and have for thirty-five years.

The CHAIRMAN. I think I am correct in stating that the committee want to hear from practical men of the effect of keeping cattle in cars the effect upon the cattle of the twenty-eight-hour law; and what would be the effect if that period should be extended to thirtysix or forty hours. Now, if you will address yourself to those questions we will be obliged to you.

Mr. BUEL. The experience I have had as a shipper leads me to state to this committee that it would be more of a humanitarian proposition to extend this law to thirty-six hours than to leave it as it is. The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Mr. BUEL. Because necessarily in the unloading and reloading of live stock you bring about a condition that results in bruising of cattle and cruelty to the animals that would not exist if you allowed them to remain in cars a longer time.

Now, Mr. Chairman, further explaining that conclusion, I want to say that in thirty-odd years of experience that I have had as a shipper and a receiver of live stock it often happens that if stock is

permitted to remain in the cars a few hours longer than the twentyeight-hour limit they would then reach their yard or destination, where we have proper and ample facilities for caring for that stock. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose the period was fixed at forty hours; would you say the same of that?

Mr. BUEL. No; I would not. Experience teaches me that there is a time when stock should be taken from the cars and rested the same as a man on a journey. He can not travel continuously without stopping for rest.

Mr. TowSEND. What is that period?

Mr. BUEL. Thirty-six hours, in my judgment.

I want to state now that our association has for years been advocating the extension of this twenty-eight-hour law. Whenever the question has come up that there was a likelihood that the law would be enforced, we at Chicago, knowing as we do the result of the enforcement of that law, have taken it up and discussed it and presented it, perhaps, here in connection with other people as many as six or eight years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. Your association is made up largely of buyers, is it not?

Mr. BUEL. No, sir. Largely of commission men, but the principal buyers in Chicago are all members of our association.

The CHAIRMAN. Then the great bulk of the cattle that are purchased there are purchased by men who are members of your association? Mr. BUEL. Yes, sir; nearly all of them.

The CHAIRMAN. And their interests are in the direction of having all the shrinkage possible in the steer before they buy, are they not? Mr. BUEL. Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman. Their interest lies in the importance of having this live stock delivered there in the best possible condition, so that they will not be bruised. If you are endeavoring to get at the point whether or not they want to avoid that shrinkage, or get the benefit, I want to say that shrinkage is one thing only in connection with live stock. To explain: You take a bunch of cattle that has been given water. In due time they will gorge themselves with water to the extent that any expert buyer will see, which will result in his buying those cattle for a less amount than he would if they were gaunt.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Is your limit of thirty-six hours dependent upon the railroad schedules?

Mr. BUEL. No; not necessarily.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Isn't your opinion made up by reason of the knowledge that you have now of the railroad schedule; for instance, where cattle will leave a given place and reach another place within the limit of twenty-eight hours at midnight? Necessarily there is a difficulty in unloading at that time, and do you not wish to extend the limit because of such considerations as that?

Mr. BUEL. Not necessarily on cattle. You can unload cattle in the dark, but with sheep it is almost a physical impossibility to unload them in the nighttime and get them out of the car. That would apply also to hogs.

Mr. RICHARDSON. According to that, then, you are somewhat influenced in wanting to extend the twenty-eight-hour limit to thirtysix hours by the schedules?

Mr. BUEL. Oh, no, sir; we are influenced because of the point that it lands the stock in the market in a less period of time and in a better condition.

Mr. ADAMSON. If you had the period extended to thirty-six hours, would you be able to reach Chicago from most of the territory without unloading?

Mr. BUEL. No, sir; they would have to be unloaded. Take the far western business from the great plains of Montana, Washington, and all of that country-that stock has to be unloaded probably twice even if they were run thirty-six or forty hours.

Mr. BURKE. Can you state what proportion of the cattle marketed in Chicago reach Chicago within the twenty-eight-hour limit and then what proportion would reach there within the thirty-six hour limit?

Mr. BUEL. I could not. In fact I have not gone into that phase of the question at all. But I would draw an imaginary line within a radius of 250 miles of Chicago, then I would draw another one 250 miles west of there, and as an illustration to you to show that if a man is 500 or 600 miles from Chicago it is to his interest to unload the stock before reaching Chicago, but if within a radius of 250 miles, it is better to unload at the destination.

The CHAIRMAN. Does not the extending of this period have a tendency to build up the Chicago market at the expense of the smaller markets that are west of there, and is not that the object that you Chicago gentlemen have in urging it changed?

Mr. BUEL. Not at all, sir.

Mr. ADAMSON. What reason is there?

Mr. BUEL. Replying to the chairman, I would say that my particular firm and many other Chicago commission merchants have offices in the other markets; hence we get but one commission for our services. It is immaterial whether we earn it in Kansas City, Omaha, or Chicago.

The CHAIRMAN. Isn't it necessary that the cattle people throughout the United States should have as many markets as possible? .

Mr. BUEL. Yes, sir; I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Will not the action of this amendment be to do away with that multiplicity of markets?

Mr. BUEL. Not at all; for the reason that we have always had markets in New York, Jersey City, in Buffalo, in Pittsburg, in Cincinnati, in Cleveland, Ohio, notwithstanding Chicago grew to her immense proportions, and notwithstanding we have had markets along the Missouri River-Kansas City, St. Joe, Sioux City---and St. Paul, farther north; Fort Worth, Tex., also, in the extreme Southwest. And within the past three years Denver, Colo., has developed into quite a market. Hence it is fair to conclude that the building up of these other markets is the natural result of the increase in volume of the live-stock industry.

Mr. ADAMSON. So that from the interest of Chicago, which you claim is the greatest market in the world, what other reason is there that there should not be built up packing houses and slaughterhouses where the cattle are grown, so as to eliminate all of this question of cruelty to animals because of the long hauls?

Mr. BUEL. Because in running a large live-stock market you neces

sarily need labor that you can not get in those small towns to perform the work that is necessary.

Mr. ADAMSON. Labor generally follows where it is wanted, does it not?

Mr. BUEL. It does under ordinary circumstances, but the packers have had great trouble time and time again in the far West in doing this, and I could state to you several cases where parties went into Montana ten or fifteen years ago and put up slaughterhouses and undertook to handle all of the by-products, and they came to grief. They told me personally that the great trouble was in getting help that knew their business and that would stay with them."

Mr. ADAMSON. Did they offer a fair division of the labor?

Mr. BUEL. Well, I was not in that business, and I could not answer that.

Mr. RYAN. If there was a market at Fort Worth would it not restrict the cattle growers in the Southwest to that market?

Mr. BUEL. No, sir; there is a market there. There are two large slaughterhouses there. Armour and Swift have large houses in Fort Worth, Tex., and they are killing a great many cattle there. I presume other gentlemen could give you the exact number.

Mr. RICHARDSON. You admit that the restriction and confinement placed upon cattle affect the market price, and that they become feverish before reaching the point of delivery. If that is true, how do you explain that if twenty-eight hours produces feverishness and reduces the price of cattle that thirty-six hours' confinement will do less than that?

Mr. BUEL. Because we take off these cattle at the expiration of twenty-eight hours. You necessarily have got to put them in yardstake them from the cars, yard them, and let them lay there five or six hours, and then put them back into the cars and run to the destination or market.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Isn't it a fact that when they are taken off now, under the twenty-eight-hour law, that they have four or five hours of rest?

Mr. BUEL. If you call it rest to put cattle into a yard where there are no special facilities for their convenience, where they can not lie down

The CHAIRMAN. Ought not there to be facilities?

Mr. BUEL. They have facilities at certain intervals.

Mr. ADAMSON. After being packed in like sardines for twenty-eight hours, isn't it rest to get out and rack around and take some exercise? Mr. BUEL. These cattle are not packed in the cars like sardines. Mr. ADAMSON. They do not have a preservative applied to them, but the effect is much the same.

Mr. BUEL. Permit me to say that in about 1888 the railroad companies changed the manner of collecting freight from the per-car rate to the 100-pound rate. Now shippers have to pay on minimum weight, and the railroad companies established that through their own experience and the experience of receivers of cattle in the markets and the shippers, and placed that minimum weight such as give these cattle a sufficient amount of room that they are to take in the

cars.

Mr. ESCH. Don't you put them in closely enough so that they won't fall down?

Mr. BUEL. There is a happy medium in which to load live stock. The cars ought to be snugly full. If the car is overcrowded, it means trouble, and if it is underloaded, in the starting and stopping of the train these cattle necessarily will go from one end of the car to the other, and it is more injurious to have them underloaded. They should be loaded just right.

Mr. ADAMSON. A medium between the evolutions of a football team and the packing in a sardine can?

Mr. BUEL. I am not much of a football player.

Mr. MANN. Neither is the gentleman who asked you the question; he only intended to be facetious.

Mr. TOWNSEND. When you unload the cattle under the twentyeight-hour law, what proportion of the time are they unloaded at the yards where they can be fed and watered?

Mr. BUEL. During the five or six hours-they usually lay over that length of time at these unloading points. They are put in the yards, and that six hours, I may state, should include the time coming from the cars into the pens, the time they rest, and the time going back.

Mr. TOWNSEND. Do you always feed them there? You do not always reach those points in twenty-eight hours, do you?

Mr. BUEL. It is a physical impossibility to have a rate of speed per mile so that these trains can make their particular destination where they have facilities to care for the stock.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Your contention, as I understand it, and the reasons that you give for it are that it is better to keep them even thirty-six hours than twenty-eight hours under the conditions?

Mr. BUEL. I do. Now, in support of that, I have some letters from my people, and I am going to ask your indulgence, Mr. Chairman, to read these letters, because they are from men who are owners or receivers of live stock, and I think it is better

Mr. MANN. I suggest, Mr. Buel, that you do not read very many. The CHAIRMAN. You can put them in the record; we have not the time to give you to have them read.

Mr. BUEL. I would be glad to do that, but I am so afraid that the members would take it for granted that it is in line with what I have said, that they would not read them.

The CHAIRMAN. You can give them to the stenographer, and put them in the record if you desire it.

Mr. ADAMSON. You can make a brief statement of the substance of them.

Mr. RUSSELL. Have you ever observed cattle that have been thirtysix hours in running to Chicago?

Mr. BUEL. Oh, yes; forty hours.

Mr. RUSSELL. What is the difference in the condition of these cattle as compared with the twenty-eight-hour run and the thirty-six-hour run, from your own personal observation?

Mr. BUEL. If it is a continuous run there is no question but that you can not discern between twenty-eight hours or thirty-six or forty hours. That will be my answer to that question. If it is a continuous run, if they do not stop at all, there will be no difference.

Mr. RUSSELL. Have you observed cattle that have been unloaded and reloaded?

Mr. BUEL. Yes, sir.