Mr. WHITEHEAD. The agent of the board of health at Denver is there for the express purpose of destroying these animals when they are in a crippled condition, and his report shows varying numbers in the different years.

Mr. STEVENS. Are there more animals now than formerly?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir; I think there are less animals.

Mr. STEVENS. Is there anything in those reports that shows whether there were more cases when the twenty-eight-hour law was enforced than when it was not?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think the reports are not sufficiently accurate. There is always a swarm of meat dealers who buy the injured animals, and when they are slaughtered and brought into the market they can not tell the difference. The agent of the health department has to get authority to destroy them; otherwise he is liable for damages.

Mr. BURKE. Some of these animals are injured as the result of accidents while the cattle are en route?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir. Usually the accidents are caused by the animals getting down.

Mr. RYAN. You speak of the railroads west of the Missouri River. Have there not been marked improvements in the roadbeds since the time you spoke of a few moments ago-20 or 30 years?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I suppose there have been some improvements. I had a talk with the agent of the D. and R. G. R. R., and he told me that the trouble was with the equipment and that they had to use old engines and anything they could get, and that therefore they could not make time. They have old ramshackled equipment.

Mr. RYAN. You do not mean to say they have ramshackled equipment on all the roads west of the Missouri River?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir; I am telling you what he said.

Mr. RYAN. That is a very exceptional case when they send ramshackled engines out?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think that expression would not apply to a great deal of their equipment.

Mr. RYAN. We want to know the facts, not what somebody else

says.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I give you the statement for what it is worth. Mr. BURKE. The maimed cattle that are killed are sold to dealers who slaughter them and offer the meat for sale?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir. The object in getting the right to destroy these animals when they are taken off the cars is to prevent that. Mr. BURKE. As a matter of fact, they are not sold for food?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Not under these circumstances, because it is prevented in that way.

Mr. RYAN. With regard to the car you spoke of a few moments ago, do you know whether or not that car was loaded upon the minimum of 22,000 pounds?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir; I did not look it up. The matter was brought to our attention with reference to this matter of 28 hours, to find out who was responsible for the dead animals. We could not place the responsibility on anybody.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state whether, in your judgment, it is better in all cases to unload at the end of twenty-eight hours or to

extend the time and run them through in some cases without unloading in the interest of injury or noninjury to the cattle?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. In our judgment we think it would be better to continue under present conditions and give a little more time in some cases, but if you amend the law you amend it in all cases and under all conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your judgment as to the general proposition; would it be more injurious to the cattle as a general thing to require them to be unloaded at the end of twenty-eight hours or to leave that to the judgment of the persons in charge and traveling with the cattle?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I do not think it is safe to leave it to the judgment of the persons in charge of the cattle.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion as to the general proposition? Is it, in your opinion, better to require the cattle to be unloaded at the end of twenty-eight hours or to leave that, safely or unsafely, to the judgment of the persons in charge of the cattle?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think the cattle ought to be unloaded at the end of twenty-eight hours. I think provision ought to be made to unload the car at the end of twenty-eight hours. A railroad should make a speed limit to get to the point within that time. I think the stockmen have a grieveance, and I think they have a right to complain of the railroads.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given consideration to the question as to the injury to cattle by trains running at very rapid rates of speed? Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think cattle are injured or not injured on a train that runs sixty miles an hour?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. The cattle are injured.

The CHAIRMAN. On a train running forty miles an hour, would they be injured?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Undoubtedly, they would be injured.

The CHAIRMAN. On a train running thirty miles an hour?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think they could run over a good roadbed at that rate.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you figured out how fast a train must run in fact between stations in order to maintain an average speed between terminals of fifteen miles.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir; because the conditions change with the road. In the West the stations are thirty or forty miles apart, and it is not so in the East, where the traffic is congested and passenger trains are frequent. The conditions vary with each individual road in that respect.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose everyone who has traveled west knows that passenger trains do not run as rapidly between Chicago and Denver, where the traffic is not congested, as they do between New York and Chicago, where the traffic is congested?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think that is true. Some have made provisions for high rates of speed.

The CHAIRMAN. You heard the statement this morning of the manager of the Boston and Albany road, that they can not make an average speed of eighteen miles an hour between terminals?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. That was the New York Central?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I heard that statement, but he based that statement upon the conditions which he detailed with reference to the congestion of traffic. Those conditions do not prevail west of the Missouri River.

Mr. ESCH. Would it be possible to make a speed schedule in the mountain States? A part of the cattle coming into Denver comes from Montana, Idaho, and the far West.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir; and goes through to Chicago and Omaha.

Mr. ESCH. Would it be impossible to make a speed schedule in those sections?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I am not a sufficient railroad man to understand about that.

Our remedy is this: That live-stock trains be given the right of way over dead freight and empty cars. The stockmen come to our office and they complain about the delays caused even in the Denver yards, and they ask us to help them; but when we try to have it done the employees of the railroads supposing that this interstate law applies say that they have twenty-eight hours and that they do not have to hurry any faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what the rules of the railroads west of the Missouri River are; whether they give stock trains the right of way over dead freight and empty cars?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I have understood from the railroads that is true. The CHAIRMAN. That is the general rule of all roads?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir; as far as I know.

The CHAIRMAN. And your proposition is not to change existing rules?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. To make it compulsory.

Mr. STEVENS. There might be conditions when such compulsion would work great hardship.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I would provide for necessary exceptions.

Mr. STEVENS. Who would have the power to make the exceptions? Mr. WHITEHEAD. It would depend on what exceptions were necessary. I am not a railroad man or a stockman.

Mr. STEVENS. Up in the central Northwest, in the grain States, there does come a time in the fall when it is necessary to move grain. Vast quantities of grain are piled up on the ground, and they have to get the grain moved just as fast as they can, and unless the grain is moved before the snow flies the farmers suffer. At that time would you compel the stock trains to have preference over the grain trains? Mr. WHITEHEAD. In such a condition we would try to find some way to do it. We want to be fair.

Mr. STEVENS. Is it not safe to leave it to the people who are responsible to both sides?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose that this committee should come to the conclusion after the hearings are concluded that it would be more in the interest of humane treatment to the live stock to permit it to be run through exceeding the twenty-eight hour limit rather than to force the cattle to be unloaded at the end of twenty-eight hours and within a few hours of their final destination? What would you advise the committee to do under such circumstances?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I do not think that would help the stockmen at all, unless you had a minimum speed rate.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us what you would advise.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I do not know that I understand the question. The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we should become convinced that it would be more humane to amend the law than it is to enforce the existing law. As a matter of humanity, do you think we ought to act upon that conviction?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Upon your honest conviction; yes. Otherwise I would not be here. The stockmen, whom we regard as friends, regard us as enemies, and we intend to be friends, and we want to help them out in any way we can, but we think this is not the right way.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not think the present condition of the law and the present practice is satisfactory, as I understand?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. In many cases I think it is. I think the stockmen deserve some help.

The CHAIRMAN. In your judgment the proper method would be to run the stock trains with greater speed?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think so.

The CHAIRMAN. You are not a railroad man?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given careful study to the question as to whether it is possible to run the stock trains at a much greater speed than they are now run?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I think we have given considerable attention to it. The conductors made the suggestion: "Why do you people not ask to have stock trains run next to passenger trains?

The CHAIRMAN. You say that is usually the rule now of the company?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir; whether they comply with the rule I do

not know.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be whether the conductor or some other official of the company complies with the rules. I do not suppose we all always comply with the rules.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. One of the complaints the stockmen make is that it is the under employees who make the trouble, because they do not obey the rules.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether there is anyone else representing the American Humane Association?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether Doctor Stillman is in the city or whether he has sent anyone here? I endeavored to notify everybody connected with the association who gave me any notice in reference to the hearing, and I do not know whether here to be heard.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. No, sir.

anyone

is

Mr. BURKE. How long have you been connected with this work? Mr. WHITEHEAD. Since 1886.

Mr. BURKE. I think it has been stated that this twenty-eight-hour law was not observed by the railroads until last June?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. It has been so stated.

Mr. BURKE. How long?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I will give you the Agricultural Department's statement upon that point. Here is the statement.

The CHAIRMAN. We issued a public document upon that subject a year ago last summer.

Mr. BURKE. To what extent have the humane societies or the society with which you are connected been endeavoring to have the law enforced?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I can not speak of any of the others. Our society has not made any special effort except to write a few letters and endeavor to take the matter up with the railroads and get them to comply with the law. The protection of the animals is very feeble and weak; there are only a few of us, and there has been no money. Here is the statement of Secretary Wilson:

In 1891 Secretary Rusk distributed thousands of circular notices addressed to all railroad companies transporting cattle within the United States, calling their attention to the provisions of the law and urging them to arrange their train service and provide necessary feeding and watering stations. In 1895 Secretary J. Sterling Morton distributed similar notices. On March 24, 1897, I issued a warning circular and caused it to be mailed to the railroad companies throughout the United States, and also caused it to be posted in conspicuous places around stock yards and railroad stations. During all this time the law was being continually violated by the carriers. Some years ago special agents were put on the road to accompany stock trains in order to detect and report violations of the law. A large number of cases was collected by these agents and transmitted to the Department of Justice for prosecution in the Federal courts. On account of the difficulty of securing evidence, and in some cases the unreasonable requirements of the district attorneys before proceeding with cases, only a small number of convictions was secured.

The CHAIRMAN. Is not that statement in an official document? Mr. WHITEHEAD. I do not know. This statement was submitted to the President by the Secretary of Agriculture.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know the average speed of cattle trains west of the Missouri River?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. I do not know except as stated to me by some of the stockmen—from 8 to 15 miles an hour. You see it is difficult for us to obtain the statistics and information we would be glad to have, because we have not the money, the means with which to do it. There is no money involved in this for us; it is simply a question of conscience and what we think is right.

The CHAIRMAN. How about calves and lambs?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. That is still worse, because the calves are taken from sucking mothers, and to keep them on the cars more than twenty-eight hours is exceedingly inhumane.

Mr. RYAN. How about hogs?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. It is not so bad; they lie down. It is the cattle that suffer most. Horses are not so bad; they keep on their feet. The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would tell us more about the calves and lambs.

Mr. WHITEHEAD. The reason I can not is because I have given no attention to it. West of the Missouri River the calves are not shipped. Mr. RYAN. If they unload calves, will they drink and eat?

Mr. WHITEHEAD. Not sucking calves. They do not know how. As I say, we do not have that sort of thing in the West.

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