Mr. COOPER. No. That ended up in the Circuit Court of Appeals It was reversed, sent back to the district court. The district cour awarded $38.000. We did not think that was adequate and we appealed that award back to the Circuit Court again and the district court was reversed again and ultimately we were awarded about $98,000.

Senator CHAFEE. As we reviewed what took place in Mobile, about 45 percent of the black children ended up in all black schools, did they! Mr. COOPER. I'm not prepared to make that statement because I'm not aware at this time. That was almost 5 years ago.

Every school in the country was to have a 60/40 ratio with the exception of approximately, I'd say, three black high schools and five black middle schools which were in all black neighborhoods.

As I recall, that was agreed upon by all of the parties and the or ganizations they represented in order to limit the degree of busing of children and also on the assurance of the defendants that certain things would be done within those schools in order to upgrade the quality of education within those schools.

This was also in the context of some blacks in the community thinking that desegregation was not a worthy goal, period, and that we should have all-black school districts.

I see Mr. Roy Innis here and I remember a time I had to fight him because he wanted to come into our city and create all black school districts. We fought that fight because we believed in integrated schools.

Senator CHAFEE. I was interested to hear that, but getting back to your appraisal of Judge Bell, it is made on the basis of your appearing before him, your being present at judicial conferences, your having argued cases before him-these two lengthy cases-and on that basis you conclude that you find him fair and objective?

Maybe he did not always come down your way but you found him, in connection with civil rights matters

Mr. COOPER. Mr. Chafee, I found him willing to look white southerners in the eye and say: Mr., this is the law and you will do it or else. That means a lot to me.

I think he will be willing to do that in enforcing the laws of this Nation.

Senator CHAFEE. Thank you, Mayor, for your testimony.

Senator SASSER. Mayor, let me touch on two points very quickly. There was some suggestion earlier this morning that black Americans. felt that they had not had enough input into the Carter administration's selection of government personnel.

Do you have any personal information of that? Have you had any personal dealings with any of the members of the transition team?

Mr. COOPER. Senator, for about four consecutive weekends, I sat in on meetings of the steering committee of the caucus of black democrats. I believe we met twice in Chicago and twice here in Washington. Governor Carter had requested the caucus of black democrats, which is chaired by a black man, Basil Patterson, the vice chairman of the democratic national committee, and was staffed by Frank Cowen of the democratic national committee and Ms. Barbara Williams, the executive director of the Congressional Black Caucus, to submit names and suggestions with regard to some 2,000 positions.

We met and tried to do that. Members of the transition committee met at least once with that group. Members of representatives of the group met at least once with Mr. Watson and submitted names.

I know for a fact that Congressional Black Caucus met personally with Governor Carter and submitted names so certainly we have had every opportunity to submit various people's names to the transition committee and to the President-elect directly.

Senator SASSER. All right, sir.

Mr. COOPER. Senator, there is one thing which if I did not mention I would really be derelict in my responsibility to other Southern black elected officials and indeed to black people as a whole who live in the South.

Senator SASSER. You go right ahead.

Mr. COOPER. Mr. Clarence Mitchell, the distinguished director of the National NAACP's Legislative Office here, his brother, Perrin Mitchell, the distinguished chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, and indeed Mr. Rauh I think have insulted and impuned the integrity of hundreds of black elected officials and black southerners and, indeed, owe us all an apology.

Mr. Rauh had the audacity, sir, to suggest that I did not represent anyone. I can say to you I do represent the people in my city and I

have to stand for reelection.

I am not here representing, but I am the president of, the national conference of black mayors which has 105 black mayors in it from across the South and from other parts of the country and I have been reelected to that post twice.

I don't know who exactly votes for Mr. Rauh, or who exactly votes for Mr. Clarence Mitchell, but we are representative and we have to account for our actions.

I understand that sometimes in the zeal of advocacy there is an excessive use of language, however Mr. Mitchell said some things and I would like to quote them because I think they are important. Senator Kennedy commented

There are those who are blacks and who are on this witness list, and to my own awareness and knowledge have suffered and experienced the kinds of indignities which you very eloquently commented about. They are here to speak in his behalf. . . I'm interested in what value we should place on their testimony.

Then Mr. Mitchell said that

I say the reason why these people are up, and I know who they are and I know the standards that they set, is that they have had so little and have been so used to living under unfortunate conditions-so I'm not surprised that they can be assembled. I would say that it is unlikely that they would have been assembled if we hadn't had this opposition.

Then, later on, he tells a story by a gentleman named Pickens about an elephant. I think you recall that. He concludes the story by saying, The elephant does not move because he has been chained in his mind.

And he says,

I would say, because I know many of these people who will come here to speak for Judge Bell, that they are chained in their minds.

I believe they come here in good faith, but they have been for so long under a system where second-class citizenship is a way of life that in their minds they believe that is right.

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Then that it was made clear to them in Atlanta

That if they can continue to have segregation in the public schools . . . and that they will share in the jobs of the administration.

He went on to say:

I sympathize with them. I have pity for them. I do not attempt to contest their right to be here, but I would say that I hope, as you listen to them, that you are not hearing the words of persons who look at the guarantees of the Constitution and the color-blindness of the Constitution as you and I look at it. Now, the last thing he said was that:

I feel... in response to a question, I believe, from Senator Chafee-I feel it is correct to say that those who come up to testify for Judge Bell have sold too cheaply.

Clarence Mitchell is one of my idols but I must candidly say, Senators, that I think he demeans himself by insulting our integrity that

way.

I would also suggest that there are probably more blacks who would be here testifying but are afraid of the wrath of black civil rights leadership, that if they came here in opposition to this leadership they would be penalized.

I am concerned about the type of reception that I am going to get from them from now on as a result of my coming here to share my experiences with you.

I know that sometimes as a lawyer when I did not have the facts I would argue the law, that when I did not have the law I would argue the facts, and that when I did not have anything I would just argue. I submit to you that there has been a lot of just arguing here.

In the Carswell case, when I was at the Legal Defense Fund, we worked our butts off and we gave you gentlemen a case by case exposition of that man's decisions. If there were the concern that I am hearing here, they would have worked, too. They have extensive legal staffs. Joe Rauh isn't that busy. I have seen a Legal Defense Fund lawyer here for 3 days, standing back there. He could have been working on these decisions if that is what the problem was.

I think there is a certain elite attitude which even black northerners show toward black southerners, that somehow they know better, that we who live in the South have not had the opportunity so they still must paternalistically tell us how to do whatever it is that we may want to do.

I would like to submit, sir, that this is no survival game-because it is no game at all-as Mr. Mitchell said. Some of us have had the good fortune to have our parents put us through the best schools in America. We have had to work our way out of those schools and I think that we have had experiences in the movement which are the equal to many people who speak here.

I know also that I go to sleep every night in Alabama and I wake up every morning in Alabama when some people go to luxurious apartments in Baltimore and Washington and New York.

I believe that while my testimony may deserve no more weight than other people's, it certainly deserves no less weight.

Thank you very much.

Senator SASSER [acting chairman]. Thank you.

I assure you that your testimony will be given great weight by at least one member of this committee.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Roy Innis?

I guess he has left. We will get to him the first thing tomorrow morning.

Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. Chairman, with your indulgence, I would like for the record of this case to close at this particular section.

I am identifying myself as Clarence Mitchell, the individual to whom the previous witness referred.

I will say to him and the committee that I hold no animosity against him for exercising his rights under the first amendment.

I would say that I was aware of the fact that he was elected mayor of his community, and I am happy to say I thought that was a great event in this Nation's history.

His testimony must stand on its own feet. I do not retract anything I have said. But as evidence of my good faith in Jay, I want to now, in the presence of all these witnesses, to shake hands with him so that you can know I have nothing against you.

[Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Cooper shake hands.]

Mr. COOPER. Mr. Chairman, I do not want this colloquy to get expanded. I am always happy to shake Mr. Mitchell's hand. However, I note that he has not retracted any of his statements. So I certainly stand on what I have said.

Senator SASSER. Let me say that the Chair, and I am sure the committee, recognizes that there are areas of honest disagreement on this

matter.

I know that Mr. Clarence Mitchell, by reputation, is a distinguished and eloquent spokesman, not only for black rights but for the rights of all Americans.

I have had the pleasure of meeting Mayor Cooper before, and I know him to be a very, very able lawyer and a very articulate spokesman, not only for his clients, but for black Americans, and not just for Southern black Americans.

So we thank you and look forward to hearing from you again. Senator MATHIAS. Mr. Chairman, this committee has been in session now since 9 o'clock this morning.

Senator SASSER. Well, Senator, the real chairman approaches, and we may get a ruling.

Senator MATHIAS. I say to the real chairman: We have been in session since 9 o'clock this morning and it is now 6:30, Mr. Chairman. Chairman EASTLAND. Yes; I am going to hear another witness. Our next witness is State Representative McKinney. Please proceed. TESTIMONY OF STATE REPRESENTATIVE JAMES E. MCKINNEY, ATLANTA, GA.

Mr. MCKINNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of this

committee.

My name is James E. McKinney. People in Atlanta and in Georgia call me Billy McKinney.

I'm a State representative in my third term. I have a constituency.

I was elected with 79 percent the first time, 82 percent the second time and 100 percent the third time.

I didn't think I would have to come here and establish any credi bility.

Chairman EASTLAND. You don't have to.

Mr. MCKINNEY. Well, I think I do since I have been attacked.

I was a policeman. One of the first black policemen in the city of Atlanta. I went on the police force in 1948.

Mr. Warren Cochran and the Negro Voters League were the people who made it possible for black policemen to get hired in 1948. They were what we call the black power structure.

They always operated in conjunction with the white power structure I, as a policeman, who was not allowed to wear my uniform tc court and not allowed to wear it into the police station, did all of our business in the basement of the YMCA, totally without dignity, in 1948.

But I stayed there for 21 years, and I fought and I picketed the Atlanta Police Department. And I raised all kinds of hell. And everybody in Atlanta and everybody in Georgia knows that Billy McKinney fought for the dignity of and the rights of black Atlanta policemen.

I came to Resurrection City and stayed 3 weeks up here. So I do have a track record in civil rights and fighting for the dignity of black people.

The reason I am here-and I paid my own fare, too, and I have been here 3 days away from the Georgia General Assembly, and they are in session and voting and I will have to go back and explain my absenceis that I saw developing the worst distortion of fact that your administrative aides could ever put together, as if newspaper clippings could tell the true story of what went on during the events of the Vandiver administration and the establishment of the Sibley commission.

I would like to tell you that the Sibley commission was introduced in the general assembly by the present Governor, George Busby. There was terrible turmoil. Ernie Vandiver had campaigned on "No, not one. Not a single black child will ever go into a white school." And not only did he campaign on it, every member of the general assembly who won election that year campaigned on it. It was the only way you could win an election in Georgia.

I would like for you to know, and enter into the record, that last year, 1976, Judge Bell was honored at Morris Brown College, a black college over 100 years old, as the man of the year.

He was honored for his role in establishing the Sibley commission. That is just how important black people in Georgia figure the Sibley commission was and the significant role that it played.

I was not a politician during those days. I went on the police force in 1948, and I was a policeman. But I was a politician in 1972 when we were faced with the Stoley plan.

I am a pragmatic politician. I was then and I am now.

They were talking about, and Lonnie King presented you with statistics showing the number of black students, the relationship between the number of black and white students when the suit was filed, and in 1972 when Judge Bell suggested that we should all sit down and talk and resolve this thing.