bad in regard to new buildings at the present time, and there should not be anything done in a legislative way that will interfere with encouraging building.

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Mr. GIESY. That is what I argued.

Mr. WARDAMAN. The present cost of building material, labor, etc., is so high that a man is taking a large risk when he does any building at the present time. I will say this, that I want to do some building, and I will say that I will do something in the way of building without profit, so as to take care to some extent of the increased population of Washington. I am making some estimates for materials at the present time on a building that I intend to build on the corner of Columbia Road and Quarry Road. In 1916 I could build such a building for $200,000, but now it will cost me $300,000. If one has four or five buildings like that going up you can see the difficulty. Maybe you can get a loan for $200,000, but it is doubtful if any of our trust companies would lend $200,000 on a building of that kind. You might get the money privately. You see if you are putting up four or five buildings like that you are apt to be four or five hundred thousand dollars short, and so you see it would keep you awake studying where this money will come from. But when you have a force like mine you have to go along and estimate about what it is going to cost. I am building at Woodley, and I believe it will cost me close onto half a million dollars more than it would have done two years ago, and I will say it was something that I had not thought about when I started to build, and if I had thought I probably would not have started, but that extra half million has got to be raised somewhere.

You spoke yesterday something about some housing questions in England. I was in England when the war started. I had just come from the Continent. As I say, you were speaking something about rents, somebody brought up the subject.

Senator HOLLIS. I asked whether the English law did not prohibit any advances in rent?

Senator SHERMAN. Over what they were in 1914?

Senator HOLLIS. Yes; over what they were at the beginning of the

war.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, I could not answer that very well; but while I was in England, and especially in the industrial centers, there was a tremendous shortage of houses.

Senator HOLLIS. Before the war?

Mr. WARDMAN. Before the war. It was almost impossible to find a house to live in. And I will also say that the municipalities in England have had the housing question or the housing problem before them in practically every small city in England, and they have handled the housing matters through an issue of bonds at 2 and 3 per cent, and they have built thousands of houses in these different localities throughout England, and even then they have had a great big shortage and there never has been a time that rents were as high in England as they were before the beginning of the war.: Senator HOLLIS. Are you an Englishman?

Mr. WARDMAN, I was born in England; yes. There are large speculators there that build houses by the hundred. like they do here, and those builders are in competition with the Government; but

they borrow money at 4 per cent themselves, and it is pretty hard for the Government to compete with the private contractors.

Senator HOLLIS. I suppose that what that means is that the rural population in England is crowding into the cities just as it is in this

country.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, of course, in England there is scarcely any more farming. The farmers have practically left England in the last few years.

Senator HOLLIS. It has doubled since the war started.

Senator SHERMAN. What is the increase in the price of coal, beginning last fall?

Mr. WARDMAN. In 1917, otherwise the fall of 1916, I had a contract-I think it was in the neighborhood of $3.75, within 5 or 10 cents either way-and we started to have a great deal of trouble in getting coal in. I had a contract with Maury Dove that year, and he could not fill the contract, and some of my coal, which was soft coal, cost me $15 a ton to put in the cellar. Last year I fortunately bought a lot of coal in advance, and I think when the weather became very bad I had probably a couple of thousand tons stored here in town, and I think I could safely say that my coal must have cost me on an average of $10 a ton last winter. But I think probably the excess was caused more by the extra cost of hauling than anything else.

Senator SHERMAN. You mean delivered?

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes. That means delivered from the cars or from my yard, wherever it might be. I think I paid about $25 to $30 a day for trucks, and on several occasions I went down to these coal yards, and I would find, sometimes, 100 or 150 trucks or wagons all waiting to get coal. Well, you see somebody has to pay for that time, and if I was hiring trucks and the man could not get to the yard, I would be paying him for his time. And so the coal cost a great deal of money, but I bought it from the mine anywhere from $3.50 to $4 a ton. I bought it before the Coal Administrator was appointed, but I should say it cost not less than $10 a ton in the buildings.

Senator SHERMAN. It averaged that to get through the winter? Mr. WARDMAN. Yes.

Senator SHERMAN. What is the average increase in the cost of labor about the ordinary apartment house?

Mr. WARDMAN. The maintenance?

Senator SHERMAN. Yes.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, we formerly hired telephone girls for $25 a month, and we are paying them now $40 to $50 a month, and, in fact, in order to get good telephone operators now we are giving them an apartment in the building. At the present time I have two operators in a large building and am paying them $50 a month and giving them an apartment to live in an apartment I can rent for $40. But you have to do something to get efficient help. The elevator boys that we formerly paid $20 and $25 a month to we are paying $40 a month to now. The same way with hall boys and janitors.

Senator DILLINGHAM. I notice many of the apartment houses are using girls as elevator operators.

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes; we are using some now.

Senator DILLINGHAM. What are you paying them?

Mr. WARDMAN. We use the girls through the day and the boys in the evening. We use the girls from 8 to 4 and the boys from 4 to 12. Senator DILLINGHAM. What is the relative cost of the two prices of operators?

Mr. WARDMAN. I think we are paying them all the same, but I am not sure about that; probably we are paying the girls $25 or $30. Senator SHERMAN. What has the cost of the janitor service increased? Take the head janitor and his help.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, the janitors that we used to pay $30 to I think we are paying about $50 a month to now. I have one janitor that was going to leave me, and I am paying him $110 a month. He is a colored fellow.

Senator SHERMAN. A head janitor?

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes.

Senator SHERMAN. And his help does not get so much?

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, we are paying this man's helper $60 a month. Senator SHERMAN. What do scrub women get the ones that scrub the halls?

Mr. WARDMAN. We are not using scrub women. very satisfactory.

Senator SHERMAN. The janitor does that?
Mr. WARDMAN. Yes; we have a man.

They are not

Senator SHERMAN. That is included in what you have mentioned? Mr. WARDMAN. Yes. We pay those men between $40 and $50 a month.

Senator SHERMAN. What advance would enable a landlord in an apartment house of your kind to keep even with the increase and the cost of maintenance and operation and the plumbers' bills, painting. and keeping the house in ordinary good condition; do you think that 5 per cent would enable him to come out even?

Mr. WARDMAN. Oh, no.

Senator SHERMAN. As compared with his former earnings or income on the same property?

Mr. WARDMAN. No; it would not cover it at all.

Senator SHERMAN. You would not quite even up on your property with the 5 per cent?

Mr. WARDMAN. No, no. I think the balance would be on the wrong side of the ledger; in fact, I know it will. I think 10 per cent would cover me in these buildings.

Senator SHERMAN. Ten per cent, as indicated in this bill?

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes; I think that 10 per cent would cover me. Senator SHERMAN. Do you know of any reason why a landlord, a lessor, could not renew his leases if a tenant wished to do so, on the 30th day of September, 1918? Suppose this bill were out of the way-remove that-do you know of any reason why the leases could not be renewed?

Mr. WARDMAN. Why, no.

Senator SHERMAN. And with a 10 per cent increase you think it would enable the landlord to live?

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes; I think so, on 10 per cent; that is, referring to apartment houses.

Senator SHERMAN. I am speaking of that. I am not referring to hotels now.

Mr. WARDMAN. Ten per cent increase generally, I think, would be all right, but I do not believe there are a few of us that really do not want to make an increase of as much as 10 per cent. I think what we want to do is to stop the profiteering of people who are subleasing. Senator SHERMAN. There are a number of people who have to renew leases on or before September 30, 1918? ng 15 hd no fa fa

Mr. WARDMAN. Yes.

Senator SHERMAN. They are here in various capacities in Government service, and I investigated some of them, and I find in many instances the landlord will not talk about renewals. He says, "Wait until midsummer." Those are actual cases that come to my knowledge.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, I will say this: That I will not take advantage of the 10 per cent in the Johnson bill unless I have to. I have not any intention of doing so.

Senator SHERMAN. Many of these with whom I have talked have no objection to the 10 per cent. They expect to pay some advance in rent to meet the advancing cost of the maintenance and operation of apartment houses.

Mr. WARDMAN. I think some of the men who can afford to bear some of these burdens ought to do it.pd

Senator SHERMAN. If you have an apartment renting for $90 a month, do you think that a charge of $150 a month would be an unreasonable advance in the rent? This apartment that I am referring to is a six or seven story apartment house.

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, that would be governed by what kind of an apartment it was and how well it was finished and how large the

Senator SHERMAN. These rooms are 12 by 15 feet, and in the apartment there are five rooms and a kitchen.

Mr. WARDMAN. Then I should say it was an excessive increase. Senator SHERMAN. I know of a case of that kind. ́ ́ ́ ́ ́

Mr. WARDMAN. I should say that it was an excessive increase. Senator SHERMAN. And a renewal was offered at $150 a month. I know of another case, four rooms, where they rented for $37.50, and the rooms now are asked to be rented at $75. That is, unfurnished. The other case I referred to was a case of unfurnished rooms; there was no question of furniture involved.

Mr. WARDMAN. I should say that that was very excessive.

Senator SHERMAN. It is those particular cases that get to the notice of the press, and some have talked to me, knowing I am on the District Committee, a number of them, and made those statements. Do you think that those are excessive rents?

Mr. WARDMAN. Oh, yes: they are all out of proportion.

Senator SHERMAN. DO you know of any way to meet the cases of women who sublease, any kind of a provision that could be made to meet any excessive charges of that kind? Could you make any suggestions to the committee?

Mr. WARDMAN. Well, I have always more or less encouraged a woman if I thought she was competent and could meet her obligations, to help her along, and to make a living for herself by letting her have a few apartments that she would have to furnish, and she has a right to be paid for her labor, and she has a right to be paid for trouble and some loss she might have through the summer

months; and I think if we allow people of that kind to charge double the rent for the furniture, I think it should be encouraged, and I think we could practically stop the excessive rent on that point. Simply say, If you want to do that sort of thing you can not have the apartment." I know that is what I am going to do this autumn when my leases become due. I shall simply say to these people--I have not very many, probably a dozen in my apartments that are subleasing—I shall tell every one of them, "I will let you do this, provided that you will charge only double the rent for the furniture." Senator SHERMAN.. That would be an average furnished room 4. Mr. WARDMAN. Yes.

Senator SHERMAN. Take the case you mentioned, with very fine furniture, and you would not think that that would be a correct ratio?

Mr. WARDMAN, No. If a person is giving somebody else something that is luxurious, I think they should be paid for it, especially. if they are willing to pay for it...

Senator SHERMAN. Do you think that the housing and, health department, if they had some person at the head of it, could properly regulate, justly to both lessor and lessee?

Mr. WARDMAN. I know we could. If we had a good, fair-minded man there would not be a bit of trouble at all. We could furnish a man very easily, get a man who would treat both sides fairly.

Senator SHERMAN. You think that that would be a practical solution of it?.

Mr. WARDMAN. I am satisfied of it.

Senator SHERMAN. So that the hard and invariable rule that is to be made in the statute would reach cases that are very much unlike each other?

Mr. WARDMAN. I do not see how you could make a law to meet these new conditions that are arising every day. I

Senator SHERMAN. But you think we could have an administrator that could meet each case.

Mr. WARDMAN. Very easily; and I think he would have very little to do.

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Senator SHERMAN. It would be more like a court. A court is not established on the presumption that everybody is going to sue everybody else, but only for the ones that do not get along together:

Mr. WARDMAN. It is the general idea that double the rent is about. right for furnished apartments, and people understand that, and I do not believe any administrator that is fair would have any trouble in making everybody understand that. Of course, when it comes to something extra and there are people who are willing and anxious to pay for luxuries, that is a different proposition.

Senator SHERMAN. On a proper showing?

Mr. WARDMAN. A fair showing; yes.

Senator SHERMAN. In most instances these people preserve their inventories or bills when they purchase their furniture, and it would be an easy matter to get at the value of the furniture, would it not?. Mr. WARDMAN. Yes.

Senator SHERMAN. In the main they buy furniture here in the city, do they not, so that you could go to the dealers if a person had lost his inventory?