20 July, 1926.]

Government against us, are they all merely treated as book-keeping entries and put against the French debt?-(Mr. Fass.) There have been some cases in which, I think, we have had to pay some small amount in cash.

Chairman.

7380. Paragraph 3 deals with: Costing Heads-General Abstract of Account? -(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Here again, if you take the costing figures, the outcome is much closer to the Estimate. The material figures are at the bottom of page 5, where the net saving was 2.64 ot the net Estimate.

7381. This is affected to some extent, is it not, by last year's decision regarding costing?—Yes, Sir. In previous years we have made, I suppose you ought to call it, a critical review of the costed Account, and I thought, to complete the record, I would include a good deal of the technical matter on the costing side; it is for the Committee to decide how far they want to go into that in view of the decision which makes this the last time you will have a costed Account before you.

Mr. Briggs.

7382. As this is the last time we are to have this Costing Account before us, Sir Herbert, I should like to ask you this: we were told, when the matter was before us last time, that an economy of £200,000 or £250,000 was to be made.(Sir Herbert Creedy.) Yes, over £200,000. 7383. Do you see that that economy is going to be forthcoming?-It has been effected.

7384. It has?—Yes.

7385. Might I ask what has happened to the staff that you had?-Two things happened to that staff. You will remember it was decided to keep a Cost Account wing of the Royal Army Pay Corps, I think that is a convenient phrase; that accounted for about one quarter of the staff, roughly. Then there were vacancies in the Royal Army Pay Corps which had been held up, and those were filled, as far as possible, by supernumerary members of the disbanded Corps of Military Accountants, and we took the opportunity of weeding the Royal Army Pay Corps on Geddes Axe terms; we got rid of some of the least efficient-there was nothing against them

[Continued.

--and those were replaced by Cost Accounts men. So we have done two things; we have formed a Cost Accounts Wing and we have added a leaven of Cost Accounting to the Army Pay Corps. For the rest, we compensated them on leaving the Corps and leaving the Army.

7386. Those you have taken in for the Cost Accounting were kept, I take it, for those Sections as to which it was laid down that you should still Cost Account? -Yes.

Major Salmon.

7387. I suppose the reduction in the number of persons in the Costing branch that you have reduced has not been increased by filling up the establishment that remain in other branches of the Department?-No; as I explained, there were certain vacancies that were deliberately held over.

7388. How long had they been held over-Only for the few months in which the decision was considered.

7389. They were temporarily being cccupied by other staff?-Yes, it was purely a temporary holding up.

7390. What I mean is this: did yo have temporary officials occupying the permanent people's positions as a temporary measure?-No.

7391. Therefore, there were a certain number of vacancies on the establishment which had not been filled?—Yes.

7392. Had those unfilled positions been unfilled for any length of time?-Not any length of time.

7393. Six months?-I should not think six months. (Mr. Crosland.) They would have had to be filled in any case very quickly. (Sir Herbert Creedy.) Rather than get another officer from the combatant ranks to fill an office we held it up deliberately.

7394. My point was that it was not necessary to fill the position immediately; therefore it might not have been necessary to fill it at all?-You may take it from me that it was.

Mr. Harmsworth.

7395. What was the reduction in numbers altogether?-There was a considerable reduction. The Army Pay Corps was 766 all ranks, and the Corps of Military Accountants 744 all ranks (I

20 July, 1926.]

[Continued.

am leaving out civilian subordinates), that is 1,510, and that has come down to 933.

7396. What happened to the 933; they have been taken on in other positions? -They were there. The 933 represents what is left of the old Corps of Military Accountants plus the old Royal Army Pay Corps.

7397. To carry on?-Yes, which still has its pay duties to do, so roughly there was a reduction of about 500, and that accounts for the £200,000 saving on the current year's Estimates.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

7398. Approximately what would be the cost of compensation with regard to the Corps of Military Accounting Officers?It varied from £3,000

7399. I mean the gross sum?-(Mr. Crosland.) I think it was in the neighbourhood of £80,000.

7400. That came into last year's figures? Yes.

7401. As from the 1st April this year, we are clear of it?—(Sir Herbert Creedy.) Yes, we were clear of all compensation efore the 1st April.

Chairman.

7402. Paragraph 4 deals with variations from Estimates; I think the essence of this, or part of it, is in the paragraph at the end, indicating that the variations are due mainly to the decrease or increase in the number of students as compared with the Estimate? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) That is So, Sir. That very largely applies to all the instances quoted.

Sir Assheton Pownall.

7403. Is there any reason why there should be considerably smaller numbers of students than was anticipated?—(Sir Herbert Creedy.) It would depend.

7404. Take any one of these where there is a great increase of cost; say the School of Signalling, which is nearly double, owing, I gather, to there being fewer students; or the School of Equitation? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay) They estimated for 158 for the School of Signals and they only had 79. (Sir Herbert Creedy.) The explanation of that is that the School of Signalling was being moved

from Maresfield to Catterick, so the later courses which had been proposed were cancelled.

7405. And some special reason applies presumably in the other cases?-Have you any particular one in your mind?

7406. Take the Royal Army Service Corps College, which is on page 34?-Yes, owing to the reductions in establishment, the Corps had a surplus of fully trained artificers; so we did not have to send so many students to be trained.

Mr. Gillett.

7407. I do not think the answer quite explains why all these schools seem to have had a drop in the attendance. The School of Signals you say was something special? Yes.

7408. It is rather extraordinary that last year you had 115, then you estimated for 158, and the final number was only 79, seeing that the time between your Estimate and the commencement of the year was only a few months?-The matter of the moving from Maresfield in the South of England to Catterick was the important thing there; it disturbed the pre-arranged course of studies.

7409. What happened to the students? I do not see that a removal necessarily gets rid of the students?-But the courses were cancelled. The students come from different Units to go through a course of training at the school; they are not there for a great time. (Mr. Crosland.) The students did not arrive

from their units.

7410. If you look at all these that are mentioned here, you find in nearly every case the figures are very much the same. What I want to know is, was it a definite policy on your part not to have the schools full?-(Sir Herbert Creedy.) No, I do not think so; there is generally a special reason in each case. In some cases where there is gun-firing, the weather was so bad that we could not get the gun-firing course through, and so there was a saving on ammunition.

7411. Take page 38, the Physical Training School. Your number in the year 1923-24 was 168, then you estimated for 290 students and the final number was 169? I ought to explain that these students come from different Units and are gathered together at Aldershot for their course, and the Units could not

20 July, 1926.]

spare their Instructors, probably owing to the exigencies of training.

7412. So that it does not really represent any actual change of policy?—No, no general change of policy. There is a specific answer in each case, I think; it is available.

7413. I do not know why the Duke of York's School was over their Estimate. The Estimate was for 480 boys and the actual number was 585?-That is due to the fact that the Royal Hibernian Military School, which was at Dublin, had to come to this country when the Irish Free State was formed. The residue of the boys was brought down to Shorncliffe, and have been incorporated in the Duke of York's Military School for reasons of economy till they die out. That is temporary.

7414. So it is an amalgamation really? -It is an amalgamation in the sense that the Hibernian School will die out altogether.

Mr. Briggs.

7415. Are these schools in one centre? Take the school of Equitation and the Royal Military School of Music?-No, they are in different places: the school of Equitation is at Weedon.

7416. What I meant was, is there one School of Equitation only in the country? -Yes.

7417. And one School of Music?-Yes, there is one School of Music, at Kneller Hall.

7418. Looking at them the comparisons do seem to be somewhat extraordinary. I see that the Instructors for the Royal School of Music cost in fees £1,200, and the cost in fees for the Riding School amount to £5,500?-They are less at the School of Music.

7419. I was making a comparison between the Royal Military School of Music, where the fees for the instructors are £1,200, and the School of Equitation, where they are £5,500; it does seem strange that the instruction for riding should cost very much more than the instruction for music?-I think it is that it has to be more individual in the case of a horse than, say, in the case of a cornet. The men who come to the Military School of Music are picked men from the regimental bands, who go there to be trained to become band-masters.

7420. In the School of Equitation what is the meaning of "Subordinates, Civil,

[Continued.

£17,131" and in the School of Music "Civil, £2,120?-Those would probably be grooms, mainly grooms and stable servants, and servants attached to the establishment.

7421. You think that at a school of which the total cost is £61,000, the principal part, or what one might expect to be the principal part, that is, the horses themselves, are a comparatively infinitesimal amount: out of the £61,000 the horses and forage and veterinary charges only cost one-sixth.-That is really economical, is not it? Because we make one horse serve to instruct a good many students.

7422. But, apparently, you still retain the instructors and the grooms and the the commanders, though you reduce horses? Have we really very much reduced the horses?

7423. You suggested that, I thought?— No, that it is an economy because we could make one horse serve a good many pupils, but you must have a proper number of instructors.

7424. You have only 81 students and they are costing 50s. a day for training them to ride-50s. a day?--Is that really excessive?

7425. It does seem to me that one might claim it is very excessive. That includes the staff and their feeding, and the rent of the buildings; you will see that is put in there.

7426. I am suggesting that all these are excessive to the requirements. Take page 33, the Small Arms School. It costs 19s. a student. There are no horses there.

7427. There are no horses there?-It so happens that the rent and rates are much less. The School of Equitation is at Weedon, and it represents an amalgamation of what formerly used to be two schools.

7428. You see you give an explanatory footnote, which says that the difference in the Estimate and the actual cost is due to the fact that the Estimate did not allow for the gaps between the courses: one might even claim that that meant to say fewer horses were required in those gaps, and I see there is some horse hire?Supplementary horses because of the gaps. The horses would have to be there waiting till the next course began. At the School of Equitation there are two courses each of about five months duration. It is not

20 July, 1926.]

7431. How is it that the administrative staff of these schools is so costly? I notice that in some cases you put in Commandants and Instructors, and in other cases they are called Commandants and Administration staff?-Which School shall I take the School of Equitation?

in

7432. Yes, just for an example?There is а Colonel Commandant charge, he gets £1,100 a year.

7433. In the case of page 27, the School of Equitation, you have "Commandant and Administrative staff," and I notice that last year it was £2,742 and this year it is £2,533?—Yes.

7434. It is slightly lower in that particular school, is it not?-Yes.

7435. If you take half a dozen of the schools you will find the very reverse takes place, where the administrative staff and commandants seem to be on the increase. What I want to try and arrive at is this: have we reached the maximum of what we have to pay in the way of administration staff in these schools, or is it a growing thing?-No, I do not think on the whole it is a growing thing: all these schools have been very carefully watched to see that they do not become excessively costly, and in connection with the current Estimates there was a Committee of the Army Council that went through the whole of the schools, and we were able to effect a certain measure of economy; but the individual schools are very carefully watched.

IS

7436. I notice in some schools the sum for instructors is less, but it is higher for administrative staff?-I think that only a casual occurrence, or there is some specific reason for it. I do not think there is any general tendency. We are particularly anxious not to put too much money into administrative staff; it is the great object of the Department to avoid that.

7437. What advice do you have on the educational side of the Army, or is each

[Continued.

one run as a water-tight compartment?— No, according to the subject matter which is taught there under the supervision of a particular officer of the staff; if it were a training establishment it

would be the Chief of the General Staff.

7438. He might be an extremely good officer on the technical side, but on the educational side do you have any information from the Board of Education, for instance, as to the cost of training, or do you adhere to a technical standpoint?— Most of the education is of a purely military character; we do not do much general education, so the Board of Education would not be able to advise us, for instance, as to riding or signalling. the School of Music we are in touch with the big musical colleges; but nearly all these so-called educational establishments are military educational establishments.

At

7439. Is not it rather strange that the proportion of the cost of the administrative staff of an old school, like the Royal Military Cadet School at Woolwich, is in ratio cheaper than the administrative staff of the newer schools?-I should be rather surprised to find that was so generally. Have you any case in mind?

7440. I happen to hit on the case here of the Royal Military Cadet School at Woolwich, and I notice that the administrative expenditure there is £6,119 for the number of students that they have. How does that compare with the newer schools? The Royal Military Academy has about 229 students, roughly; there is a Major-General as commandant there; it is a very important establishment because it trains our officers for two most important branches.

7441. I quite appreciate that, but it struck me that some of the older schools seem to be run cheaper administratively, in proportion to the number of students, than the other schools?-I think generally there is a commandant and an adjutant, and a quartermaster as well sometimes, if it is a big school, and then of course there is the necessary comple ment of instructors; but there are not very many administrative officers as a rule.

7442. There are not?-No.

7443. For instance, if you take the School of Equitation, the cost there of £2,500, or £2,700, as it was last year, for the commandant and administrative staff, for 80 odd students, is not in the same ratio, is it, as £6,000 for the 230

Chairman.

7446. Sir, Malcolm, I think you have no Report on this Account other than the formal statement on page 3?-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) No sir, all I have got to say is that the Account is correct.

Sir Fredric Wise.

7447. Do you get any money from the Government to keep this Institution going? (Mr. Willcox.) Willcox.) Not in this Account.

7448. Have you in the past?-Not in this particular Account; it is not brought into account here. The only matter, perhaps, that would arise out of your question is that the Ranelagh Legacy is

utilised for buying what are called in the original terms of the bequest, surtout coats " for the Pensioners; they are great coats really, and for 200 years that money sufficed, but when the change in values came, and in the purchasing power of money, and prices went up, it was not found sufficient, and, when the legacy has been utilised to its full extent, the excess is paid for from voted funds.

7449. How much is that?-On this last occasion there was a transfer of £114 16s. 3d.

7450. That was paid by the Government?-Paid by the Government.

7451. Where does that appear here?— That does not appear here; that appears in another Account.