Chairman.

2524. There is no outstanding point on this Account to which you have drawn attention, Sir Malcolm?-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) No, sir, there is no Report.

Sir Fredric Wise.

2525. What is the meaning of “Loss on Realisation of Investments" on page 477-(Mr. Macpherson.) The National Debt Commissioners invest this money for us; this refers to 5 Exchequer Bonds purchased by the National Debt Commissioners at a premium in August, 1922, and retained till they matured in February, 1925, when they were repaid at par. Although there was a loss of this amount of principal, there was a net income to the Fund from the investment at the rate of approximately 3 per cent. It was dealt with by the National Debt

15 April, 1926.]

[Continued.

Bonds, or something of that sort. ?-We did not want the money realised in three years time; they selected an investment which matured.

2529. It was not your fault; you did not select it? No, it is all done by the National Debt Commissioners for us."

Major Salmon.

2530. I notice with reference to subhead F.1. "Grants towards Housing Expenses," it is extraordinary in Scotland how close your expenditure is to the actual Grant?-It is in some things, but I am afraid we are not always quite as near as that.

extraordinary

2531. What was the thing that made you so near; especially bearing in mind that it was necessary for us to bring in special legislation to force Local Authorities to take an interest in Housing it is extraordinary that you should have got so near in estimating it? We had in very fairly accurate figures of what was going to be done. We had been over-estimating in the previous years, thinking a good deal more would be done, and we cut down our Estimate a good deal, I think it was more by luck than merit that we got so

near.

2532. With regard to the grant for the treatment of tuberculosis, do you work it on the same basis as the grant which is given in this country?-It is a 50 per cent. grant on expenditure.

2533. And the same thing with other special sums?-Yes, they are all 50 per cent. except the V.D., which is G.4., and that is a 75 per cent. grant.

2534. Are the expenses in your Department on the increase or the decrease?Do you mean the Departmental expenses or the grants generally?

2535. The Departmental expenses ?-Of course, in connection with taking over the administration of the Widows' Pensions Act this year we shall have to provide a considerable additional staff; if it had not been for that, on the whole the expenses are going down. . You will see for 1923-24 we rather over-estimated. They are going down a bit; we are not taking on new people.

2536. Once the Widows' Pensions Act gets into operation it will be a mere routine job, will not it?-The cases will always want enquiring into. Of course, * See Appendix 16.

the initial expenditure is much the hignThere est, but there is more coming on. are the Old Age Pensions coming on as part of it, and before long we are going to take over the whole of the administration from the Customs and Excise, so I cannot say that we can really hope to reduce our establishment at all in the near future.

2537. For the pressure in connection with the Widows' Pensions, cannot you put on temporary staff?-We have added temporary staff.

2538. You have not added to the permanent staff?-We have had to have some additions to the permanent staff, but they are nearly all temporary. That is in anticipation of having to take on this extra thing which will be coming in July next, I think.

2539. It is not a large item at the best, is it? It takes a considerable amount of looking into.

2540. You are talking of Old Age Pensions, not Widows' Pensions?

Sir John Marriott.] On a point of order, I would suggest that the question of Widows' Pensions does not arise on this account.

Chairman.] It is part of the administration which the Act puts on the Scottish Board of Health.

Sir John Marriott.] But it is not in these Accounts.

Chairman.] I imagine it influences the personnel of the Department.

15 April, 1926.]

[Continued.

2544. How is this grant made to the local Authority? (Mr. Jeffrey.) They get a 50 per cent. grant in respect of what they do in the way of making provision for this inspection. The Local Authorities also medically examine aliens coming into this country, and in respect of that they get 100 per cent. of the approved expenditure. The other is ordinary Port Sanitation, and they get 50 per cent. The 100 per cent. is for the examination of aliens.

Chairman.

2545. In respect to that you are really only a kind of channel through which it passes, because the whole 100 per cent. is paid? We control the expenditure, of course, and approve the salaries of the officers, but the Local Authorities appoint them and make their own arrangements generally.

2546. The whole cost falls on the Government, does not it?-(Mr. Macpherson.) Yes, of the examination of the aliens.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

2547. With regard to the Highlands and Islands Medical Service Fund, the balance is carried forward from year to year?-From year to year; the balance is not surrendered.

2548. And the Board have the right to use that, of course?—Yes, we are living on it, as you see, to a great extent; it is subject to Treasury sanction, of course.

2549. If the balance were diminished materially, is there any means of building it up?-Only by getting another Act of Parliament.

2550. So you are anxious not to cut it down very much ?-We want to live on it as long as we can.

2551. From when does the original Fund which created it date?-In 1914 the Highlands and Islands Fund was constituted.

2552. What was the amount ?-£42,000. Of course, during the war a great deal of it accumulated. We did not start the scheme, and that is how we have got this balance.

Mr. Gillett.

2553. With reference to sub-head F. 4. The Rosyth Housing Scheme, what do you expect to be the position of this Estate? -This is for the houses.

2554. Will it be used for housing?-We very much hope that it will; we have authority now that the houses should be let at the same rents as they were let to the Admiralty employees. We hope that some of them will be let in time, but this is some little way from Dunfermline; there is very great need for houses in Dunfermline; and we hope that the loss will not be so great if they are let at some time. They are being taken up by degrees.

2555. Have you a number standing empty now?-Yes, there is a certain number; at one time there were over 300, but that has been reduced considerably.

Chairman.

2556. This is White Paper 170 of 1925, and there are certain passages on pages 2 and 3 which apply to the Scottish Board of Health. Your Report, Sir Malcolm, is in formal terms?-(Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Yes; there has been very little doing during the year; very little money has been spent.

Sir Fredric Wise.

2557. May I ask you about this Scottish National Housing Company, Ltd.; is that the Company which the Prime Minister formed recently?-(Mr. Macpherson.) No, this is the original Company which was formed away back in 1915, and the Company which is

providing the new houses the Prime Minister spoke of, is called the Second Company; I think there are four or five of the Directors of the Company we are dealing with in the White Paper who are Directors of the Second Company which is building these steel houses.

2558. Why was it necessary to have this Company?-I may say that, of course, they are making use of the staff of the old Company, and they have had a great deal of experience in building houses and I think the idea really was that they would be able to do it better.

2559. Do I understand the capital of this Company is £100,000 of which £62,500 is paid up, and the expenditure is a little over £1,000,000?-The capital of the original Company is £250,000, of which £106,881 has been paid.

[Continued.

2572. For how many years do they guarantee that?-Until the company is wound up.

2573. Who has the power to wind the Company up, the Government or the private people. Do I really understand you to say that the Government give a guarantee in perpetuity to a Company; is that the position?-Yes, that is the position during the period of the agreement.

2574. What do the Treasury say?(Mr. Phillips.) I shall have to see the contract. I imagine it remains while the

56645

houses last. (Mr. Macpherson.) While the Company lasts and the houses last.

2575. It is earmarked to a district?— All these particular houses were built for Government employees; they were built for people at the Dockyard at Rosyth; in order to provide the housing this Company was started, and the Government then guaranteed this 5 per cent. to them.

2576. Do the Government ever get any of the capital back. How is the capital paid back; is it to the shareholders first of all? Well, I take it that when the Company is wound up they will have a call upon the assets of the Company, which will be the houses, to repay the capital of the shareholders. The money for building the houses is advanced by the Government on the security of various annuities. You will see on page 2 a statement showing money borrowed and the securities created; you will see that £70,971 of annuities have been created. Last year's Paper showed the individual annuities as they were from time to time created. (Mr. Phillips.) I ought to mention here that the rents chargeable by the Company are fixed by the Government, and in fact the Government holds the majority of the shares: 100,000 out of 171,000.

2577. Can they sell the property to the individual tenants?-I should think so. (Mr. Macpherson.) Yes; the properties can be sold, and the money would be used in paying off the money which had been advanced.

2578. That is part of the undertaking of the Company that there shall be a first charge to pay off any money that has been advanced.-That is so.

2579. That is part of the agreement.That is part of the agreement.

Sir John Marriott.

2580. Has any considerable amount been paid off?—No, it has not; the houses have not been sold.

2581. There is no likelihood of their being sold now is there?-There is more chance of it now, I think, than there was before, because they were simply being retained for the purposes of the employees at the Dockyard. If the present curtailment of the Dockyard is continued, and they are not required in the same way by those people, there will be more chance of their being sold to private individuals.

G