Mr. MAYPER. You mean, divert the steamers?

Senator KING. Yes.

Mr. MAYPER. Mr. Farley can answer that better than I.

Mr. FARLEY. We have done so on occasion, Senator. We have services to other ports.

Senator KING. I think it would be a good idea to take some of them to New Orleans and Mobile.

Mr. MAYPER. On the next section, alien seamen, I ask permission to have Mr. Ravenel say just a few words about that a little later.

Page 27. This is another effort to increase fines from $200 to $1,000 for bringing in certain mentally or physically disabled people and illiterates; also as to certain minor diseases, increasing the fine from $25 to $250. I do not know what more the lines can do to prevent the arrival of such aliens, no matter if you raise the fine to $10,000 per person.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Can you tell us how much you have been fined in the last year?

Mr. MAYPER. I do not know, Senator. Do you know, Mr. Farley? Mr. FARLEY. A large sum. I will submit the figures.

Mr. MAYPER. I will be very glad to get that for you, Senator. As you all know, the United States Public Health Service has practically established a quarantine on the other side for six or eight days, at every port of Europe, so that any contagious disease that an immigrant might have would be detected during the balance of the 14-day period that it might take him to come to the United States. With the efforts of the United States Public Health Service in the quarantining of contagious diseases, backed up by the steamship doctors, not only at the ports of embarkation but also at the capitals in the interior where the immigrants pass through originally, with all the medical inspection that the lines are now providing and with the medical inspection provided by the United States Public Health Service on the other side, still people will get in who are diseased simply because the disease can not be easily detected.

Commissioner Tod once said to me, when he was in office, "People come across who are apparently all right. The doctors examine them, and they seem to be all right. They are detained for a day or two for some minor reason, and during that time they suddenly develop trachoma. He might have had trachoma before he left the other side, but we did not know it. We could not locate it, and the Public Health Service could not. The doctors at Ellis Island could not locate it. It develops in the course of time."

Now, with the inability of either the Public Health Service or the steamship company doctors to detect every case of physical and mental disease of the more serious kind, it does seem to us that a huge fine is entirely unfair. Certain things can not be prevented, no matter how many doctors you put on board and no matter how high your fine is.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. The total fines in the last fiscal year were $201,000.

Mr. MAYPER. What would this do to it?

Senator WILLIS. There would not be so many cases. When the fine is made heavy it is inevitable that there will be greater care. The total fines collected will not be any greater at $1,000 than they are

now.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. We do not want to increase the revenue; we want to lessen the distress. Some of these cases of disease constitute the most pathetic cases at Ellis Island, and if it is possible by any means to catch them at the point of origin it ought to be done.

Senator COPELAND. We assume that we have done so.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Well, we have raised the fines. The discussion is whether the fines ought to be increased. At present they are $25 and $200, under the act of 1917. We are making them $250 and $1,000.

Mr. MAYPER. And our answer is that no matter how high you assess the fine, I doubt very much whether the lines can prevent the bringing in occasionally of diseased people.

Senator COPELAND. It will be admitted by all physicians that it is extremely difficult at times to diagnose a case of tuberculosis, and the time which elapses between the examination on the other side and the examination here might be sufficient to make a diagnosis possible.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. We have provided here" and that the existence of such disease or disability might have been detected by means of a competent medical examination at such time"; that is, at the time of such embarkation. I think that is adequate to protect them against penalty for those undisclosed cases.

Mr. MAYPER. Take another illustration, Senator; cases of illiteracy. I have known of cases at Ellis Island where the immigrant was held on account of illiteracy. He was held for re-examination, and other examiners decided he was literate.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Of course there are border-line cases under every law.

Mr. MAYPER. But just because they are border-line cases, why should you load the fine on the steamship line, when the steamship line has used every precaution and has brought a person over whom it honestly believed was eligible under the law?

Senator COPELAND. Are those border-line cases?

Mr. MAYPER. I think the majority of cases in which fines are assessed are border-line cases.

Senator COPELAND. Have you a complaint to make about the way fines have been assessed in the past?

Mr. MAYPER. Well, we have asked for refund in a number of instances, and have obtained them.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. In the main, however, they are pretty fair, are they not? Commissioner Curran is pretty fair, isn't he?

Mr. MAYPER. Oh, I think so.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. As fair as anybody on the other side of the fence can be?

Mr. MAYPER. Yes, sir. But it is not a question of fairness at all; it is a question of physical possibility. How far can we go that we are not going now? Can we do any more?

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Yes; you can make your test a little bit stricter than they do, and then there will not be any borderline cases.

Mr. MAYPER. Well, in my conversations with the representatives of the lines they tell me that from the inspections being made on the other side it is a physical impossibility to detect a larger number

of inadmissible aliens, inadmissible on account of physical defects, than we detect now.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. This law is going to increase very much the opportunity for admission. You are going to have a much wider field to select from. It will not be like it was in 1910 to 1917. You are going to have a great number of applicants. You can reject the border-line cases and still fill your ships.

Mr. MAYPER. Just a minute. It may be difficult to reject a borderline case when the man has a visé certificate. A person who has a visé certificate issued by an American consul abroad is eligible, as far as any human being can tell, to admission to the United States, except for final inspection.

Senator COPELAND. We do not expect that you are going to disregard your duty even though the immigrant does come along with a visé certificate. It is expected that you will exercise precautions to see that no mistake is made.

Mr. MAYPER. I am sure steamship lines intend to continue what they are doing now as far as their medical inspection is concerned. The CHAIRMAN. I do not think that a consul will issue a visé certificate unless the immigrant is able to pass the literacy test. Senator REED of Pennsylvania. This bill provides that he must sign it in the presence of the consul.

The CHAIRMAN. I find there were only 2,095 cases where they were rejected for being unable to read-just about the same number as excess quota.

Senator HARRISON. How many cases were there last year in which it was sought to impose penalties for violation of this law by the steamship lines?

Senator REED. There was $201,000 of fines imposed on all of the transportation agencies last year.

Mr. MAYPER. Was that for all causes?

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. For all causes.

Mr. MAYPER. That included a number of excess quota cases?
Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Yes; a number of things.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the 694,025 immigrant and non immigrant aliens applying for admission to the United States during the fiscal year just ended, 2.9 per cent were rejected for all causes. That is on page 13 of the commissioner's report.

Senator WILLIS. Mr. Chairman, we have the views of the witness on that point. Let us go on.

Mr. MAYPER. I think I have just one more suggestion. If you accept our position on this we will suggest further that you change the $250 to $25, and $1,000 to $200, and leave it as it is under the present law.

Senator COPELAND. I would like to make a comment there. Do you remember the old days when we had vermin-infested immigrants coming in?

Mr. MAYPER. Yes, Senator, while you were commissioner of health. Senator COPELAND. Yes. And do you remember the row I made about it?

Mr. MAYPER. Yes.

Senator COPELAND. And you recall also that as a result of that row we did not get any more, because the immigration people estab

lished those hotels on the other side, you will recall. They kept them there until they were clean and did not let them come in vermin infested.

Mr. MAYPER. That was the Public Health Service, was it not, Senator-the Public Health doctors on the other side?

Senator COPELAND. No; it was done by the steamship lines. The Public Health Service doctors were there to see what was going on, but the steamship lines did it.

Now, the purpose of the committee in raising the fine is to see that you are just as careful now about these cases as you have been since my rumpus with you over the vermin. That is the purpose of

it.

Mr. MAYPER. Haven't we been?

Senator COPELAND. And you know that is exactly what the effect has been.

Mr. MAYPER. Haven't we been careful?

Senator COPELAND. Well, you are always good when you are made to be good. Sometimes, you know, you have to crack the whip. I would like to say in this connection, however, that there are good lines and bad lines. What I am saying does not apply to all the lines; we do not have to whip everybody.

Mr. MAYPER. There are some lines that are not members of our conference. I assume you refer to them.

Page 29, line 25, the last words, "of a sum of sufficient to cover such fines." I suggest that you insert the words similar to the bond provision, "or of a bond of a sufficient surety to insure the payment thereof."

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. I thought that had been inserted. We inserted it in two or three other places.

Mr. MAYPER. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. I hope you will hear Mr. Ravenel for just two or three minutes.

(Additional data submitted by the witness is here printed in full, as follows:)

MEMBERS OF THE TRANS-ATLANTIC STEAMSHIP CONFERENCES.

Baltic American Line (Inc.), 9 Broadway.

Canadian Pacific Steamships (Ltd.), Forty-fourth Street and Madison Avenue.

Compagnie Generale Transatlantique, 19 State Street. (French Line.)
Cosulich Line, 17 Battery Place.

The Cunard Steamship Co. (Ltd.) and Anchor Lines, 25 Broadway.
Fabre Line, 17 State Street.

Hamburg-American Line, 39 Broadway.

Holland America Line, 24 State Street.

International Mercantile Marine Co., 1 Broadway.

American Line.

Atlantic Transport Line.

White Star Line.

Leyland Line.

Red Star Line.

Furness Line, 34 Whitehall Street.

Lloyd Sabaudo, 44 Whitehall Street.

National Steam Navigation Co. (Ltd.), 20 Pearl Street. (Greek Line).
Navigazione Generale Italiana, 1 State Street.

North German Lloyd, 18 Pearl Street.

Norwegian-America Line Agency (Inc.), 8-10 Bridge Street.

Royal Mail Steam Packet Co., 26 Broadway.

Scandinavian American Line, 27 Whitehall Street.

Sicula Americana, 17 Battery Place.

Spanish Royal Mail Line, Pier 8, East River.
Swedish American Line, 24 State Street.
Transatlantica Italiana, 5 State Street.
United American Lines (Inc.), 39 Broadway.
United States Line, 45 Broadway.

STATEMENT OF MR. G. F. RAVENEL, ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT INTERNATIONAL MERCANTILE MARINE CO.

Mr. RAVENEL. At the foot of page 22, paragraph (b), you have a new amendment:

The immigration officer in charge at any port may cause the examination of the crew of any vessel about to depart therefrom for the purpose of determining what, if any, changes have been made in the membership of said crey while the vessel was in port. The collector of the port shall, upon the request of such immigration officer in charge, refuse clearance until advised by such immigration official that such examination has been completed.

In connection with that, if this thing were strictly enforced, during the periods of the year when we have large desertions which we can not stop, I doubt whether you would have any of the big trans-Atlantic liners leaving within from one to five hours of the time they are scheduled to go.

At the present time we file Form 689, which gives the changes in the crew. It would be very serious if we had to wait. For instance, we may have desertions at the last minute; we do very often. They walk right off the ship, 20, 30, 40, or 50 at a clip. Then we have to send down and get a man to inspect that ship, and he has to go all over the crew, and it is a matter of hours.

If that is the intent, then I most respectfully urge that that be stricken from the bill. I do not know how we are going to protect ourselves against it.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. How are we going to protect ourselves against alien seamen? One of the biggest quotas we have to-day is deserting alien seamen.

Mr. RAVENEL. How does this protect you against deserting alien seamen ?

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. It makes sure that you take away as many as you bring; it keeps the quota the same.

Mr. RAVENEL. Yes; but how are we going to get those men? Senator COPELAND. There is another reason why we put this in the bill. We have in New York about 6,000 merchant seamen all the time.

Mr. RAVENEL. I should not be surprised. The number changes. Sometimes we have quite a lot.

Senator COPELAND. Well, 50 per cent of them are infected with the worst sort of venereal disease. We are going to help make sure that when you take on your crews on the other side you take men who are reasonably clean. We do not want them to be brought over here and dumped on us. The thing I would be particular about is to make sure that you take back all these infected persons. Mr. RAVENEL. Well, sir; at the present time if those men are found on our ships they are taken away from us anyway. They are sent to hospitals.