The CHAIRMAN. I think the Johnson bill provides six months. Mr. HUSBAND. For this reason, Senator Copeland: I have seen cases where the families were ready to come; they had the steamship ticket, and everything prepared, and a child might be taken sick, which would delay the coming of the whole family for two or four or six months. And then they would be unable to come.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Or separate the family and leave one over there, and the rest come.

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes. And it was for that reason I had in mind a reasonable length of life for the certificate. I would not object to four months, and maybe six months. There is the usual seasonal fluctuation. I went over, I think, 10 years immigration by months to see how great that fluctuation was, and I believe it was in May, 1907, it was 16 per cent of the total for the whole year came in May. That was the highest.

Senator COPELAND. Well, suppose the owner of the certificate decides he is not going to use it, what becomes of it? Can it be issued to somebody else then?

Mr. HUSBAND. No; it is like an expired Pullman ticket, or a theater ticket. It is gone.

Senator COPELAND. I know, but with a Pullman ticket, if you tell the agent you can not use it, you can have it redeemed.

The CHAIRMAN. It is nontransferable.

Mr. HUSBAND. It is nontransferable.

Senator COPELAND. I know, but with a Pullman ticket, if you tell the consul?

Mr. HUSBAND. No, sir.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. I do not think it should be.

Senator KING. I am satisfied with that. It is nontransferable, and an expired ticket.

Senator COPELAND. I understand it is not transferable by the immigrant.

Senator KING. Suppose he dies. Should it be turned back to the consular office?

Senator COPELAND. I think it should be.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. I had those things in mind when I said there is 10 per cent wastage.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose the immigrants send their tickets back to the consul, the consul could not issue new certificates?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. No: I do not think it would be proper to permit it, because it would cause trafficking in certificates. Senator REED of Pennsylvania. I did not understand what you said about trafficking in certificates.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. If one had a certificate, and issued it to some one else, or sold it to some one else. It is like trafficking in homestead entries, or something of that kind.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Henning, you are dealing with the consular certificates as a means for having an orderly arrival in New York. Let me ask you, how far do you think the consular certificate could dispense with the operation of the law of 1917 as to selection at the port of arrival? As you know, under the present law the selection at the port of arrival is very elaborate. I mean, the excluded classes are of a very large number. Stated in another way, it would be impossible, if the present law were enforced at the port

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of arrival, to admit any immigrant who was not sound in mind and body. You understand?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that the consular certificate, which embodies selection at the source, would in any way prevent from coming over immigrants who could not pass the selective test at Ellis Island?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. No; I do not think it would fail to bring people who can not qaulify; there would be those who could not qualify.

The CHAIRMAN. What then is the main purpose of the consular certificate, aside from regulating the orderly number of arrivals?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Two things: First, to warn those who are clearly inadmissible not to dispose of their jobs and homes and property and take a long journey which will result merely in bringing them back again, which means hopelessness and despair for the average family which has that experience; to reduce that to as near a minimum as possible. It will not be absolute. But to reduce it. And, second, to give the alien the opportunity of knowing more definitely and fully what the requirements are before he fully embarks on his journey.

And also the excess quota arrivals. It would do away with the excess quota arrivals, because the certificates would be issued only within the numbers provided by the quota, and no one would come without a certificate. I think the excess quota is the most tragic of all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Henning, is it not true-I want to relieve the impression that prevails if it is not true-is it not true that an exaggerated impression prevails as to the number of deportations under the present law?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes; that is true.

The CHAIRMAN. I turn to Commissioner General Husband's report, and I find that out of 694,000 there were deported 8,080 under the operation of the present law, the past year. I find that at Ellis Island out of 600,000, only 1 per cent—a trifle more than 1 per cent, 1.1-were rejected for all reasons. I want to show that the impression concerning deportations seems to be exaggerated.

I want to get your proposition. Your proposition is that the certificate would help to regulate the number at Ellis Island; and, further, it would prevent a number from coming here who would be rejected?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir. Now, there are thousands of immigrants camping around Warsaw, and other points, waiting and waiting a turn for a visé, and thousands of whom never get it. Now, my thought goes not only to those rejected at the emigrant port, but those rejected by the steamships and the consuls and medical officers of steamships, whose tragedy is just as complete as those who come to the immigrant port, because they have left their home moorings, and they become flotsam, and thousands of them get into American territory. We had from Cuba, two years go, nearly 2,000 that got into Cuba, and were wanting to come to America, and were there after having been refused visé. And we have a consular report that a steamship company was organized to operate a steamship to bring

from Cuba and Vera Cruz those who could not get to America, or who were rejected for many reasons.

Senator COPELAND. Mr. Henning, is the issuance of this certificate going to act in such a way as to relieve the steamship company from guarding the health and giving the careful inspection that should be given to the immigrants before they go on the boat; or is the steamship company going to assume that since the immigrant possesses the certificate, that relieves them of any responsibility?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. The law is not changed; they are still responsible for any rejected alien, regardless of the certificate. The steamship companies have brought, in spite of the penalties they are under, a great many people that they had no business to bring. Senator KING. We propose here to make the penalty very much larger than the present penalty.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. What I want to get at is this: Whether the steamship company is absolved from any of these things? Assistant Secretary HENNING. No, sir.

Senator COPELAND. But that will be the first excuse you will get: This man has a consular certificate.”

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Senator, the argument is just as potent to-day, "This man had a passport viséed, and we supposed he had the right to come." In spite of what the truth is, if he is found inadmissible he believes that the visé was the open sesame for his admission. And lawyers and Members of Congress, and all sorts of good people come to our office and argue, and say: "Why did you visé this man's passport and then not admit him when he comes here? The $10 for a visé represents a fortune in Europe. Why have you done this?" And the immigration certificate may be a substitute for the visé.

Senator COPELAND. Now, how much of an examination do you expect the immigrant is to have in the consular office before he gets this certificate? Do you understand a representative of the Public Health Service is going to look that man over?

Assistant Secretary HENNING, Well, Senator, that will have to be a matter of experience as we go along. We will be pioneering, I admit.

Senator COPELAND. You will find a great difference in consuls. Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir.

Senator COPELAND. There are some offices where their visé is good. Senator King and I are liable to brag about Warsaw, and the work of Mr. Keen. If that sort of inspection were given the applicant for a certificate in every consular office, Major Curran's work will be much less here.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Undoubtedly.

Senator COPELAND. Because you will have a cleaner, better immigrant to deal with.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Henning, coming practically to this certificate now, the Johnson bill provides by statute that a petition shall be filed by the immigrant, a petition which he must sign and swear to, somewhat in detail. The certificate recites certain facts, not so much in detail. Another bill, proposed by Secretary Davis,

would leave the regulation of the form of the petition which the immigrant should present to get his certificate with the State Department, or the State Department in combination with the Labor Deparment.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In view of the possible international relationsassuming that you might get into the diplomatic field under the Johnson statutory provision-is it your opinion that it would be better to adopt the Johnson bill, which sets forth in the statutory form the petition and all the details, or do you believe it would be better, in view of the fact that the selection at the source is a somewhat delicate question, to leave the regulations to be prescribed by the Department of State as to the form of petition which the immigrant shall present before he gets his certificate?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Well, I will answer that this way: I think it is always a mistake to legislate too much in detail from administrative functions of a law. Law enforcement and law evasion represents more or less of an equation always. As the methods become more refined, the methods of enforcement are improved. And no matter what safeguard you throw about it some trick is always devised that more or less gets around it; and if your machinery is frozen by legislative enactment, you have no means of meeting it by new methods.

Senator COPELAND. Mr. Henning, does it not also work this way: That if you leave too much to the voluntary action of your administrative officials, that influences will be brought to bear to make it hard for one and easy for another?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Well, the regulations would be made by the Secretary of Labor and the Secretary of State. It would not be left to the individual immigration officer. But the regulations made by a Cabinet officer within the statute have the force of law.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Mr. Henning, let me ask you whether in the following questions you discover anything that would be a hardship on any one coming from a foreign government: The immigrant shall state in his petition his full and true name; age, sex, and race; the birthday and birth place; places of residence for five years preceding his application; whether married or single, and the names and places of residence of wife or husband and minor children, if any; calling or occupation; personal description, including height, complexion, color of hair and eyes, and other marks of description; ability to speak, read, and write; names and addresses of parents, and if neither parent is living, then the name and address of his nearest relative in the country from which he comes; port of entry into the United States; final destination, if any, beyond the port of entry; whether he has a ticket through to such final destination; whether going to join a relative or friend, and, if so, what relative or friend, and his name and complete address; the purpose for which he is going to the United States; the length of time he intends to remain in the United States; whether or not he intends to abide in the United States permanently; whether he was ever in a prison or almshouse; whether he or either of his parents were ever in an insane asylum.

Those are the requirements that the Johnson act requires to be in the application.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Reed, has the Johnson act been amended striking out the provision that the immigrant should come under governmental report?

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. Then it goes on, if he claims to be a nonquota immigrant, the facts on which he bases his claim, and such additional information as the Secretary of Labor may specify; and I would broaden that by giving the same power to the Secretary of State.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Yes; I think that is all right. I see no objection to that.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. And then it goes on that the immigrant shall furnish to the consular officer, with his application, copies of his "dossier," and prison and military record, if any, a certified copy of his birth certificate if required by the country of his birth, and copies of all available public records concerning him kept by the Government to which he owes allegiance. I would have that to read, "his birth certificate, if available," because it is a practical difficulty in many cases to obtain one in his government. Those documents are to be attached to the application and become a part thereof. Then he shall further state whether he is a member of each of the excluded classes under the present immigration law. Does it strike you that those requirements are unwise?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Oh, no; I think those are all right. Senator KING. Senator Reed, does not that require a statement from the applicant as to his physical condition and his freedom from contagious or infectious disease?

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. That would be required, because those are among the excluded classes specified in the act of 1917. Assistant Secretary HENNING. Here is my point. When you enumerate in the statute the questions that must be asked, you provide, by inference, that other questions may not be asked.

Senator REED of Pennsylvania. But the bill as drafted says, "Such additional information as the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Labor shall by regulation prescribe."

Senator COPELAND. Why not include in this list the presentation of a health certificate?

Assistant Secretary HENNING. I think it should be stated.

Senator COPELAND. I will answer that question myself. Nine times out of ten this individual would come along without any health certificate, and he would say, "Let your doctor examine me."

Assistant Secretary HENNING. I think the health certificate would be the first requirement.

Senator COPELAND. The point I have in mind is this. I think it is a shame to have people coming over here with trachoma or some other ailment

Assistant Secretary HENNING. Ringworm of the scalp.

Senator COPELAND. Yes. Now, if the certificate issued included a health certificate showing the absence of these things, much of the work at Ellis Island would be done away with.

Assistant Secretary HENNING. I think there should be a medical examination as a part of the examination.