they were on the ships when the Chinamen were brought into this country and alien seamen, so-called, were brought into this country. The CHAIRMAN. I told the gentleman that I am not disputing the evil of it. There is something wrong some place. I am discussing some statements that the witness made in answer to my friend here to my right, that there was no evidence so far as I remember-you want the truth, don't you? Mr. SCHULTE. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. But there is no evidence of the amount of notice given to anybody of this quantity of smuggling, except we know they are smuggling, they are here, they are with us. I say there is an evil, but the broad statement charging the Department with neglect or failure Mr. O'BRIEN (interposing). I do not charge, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. The inference is there. Mr. FOCHT. I will charge then. If you can substantiate what you say I will charge them with neglect. Mr. O'BRIEN. That is common property. Mr. FоCHT. Don't you think so? Mr. O'BRIEN. Here is a statement right here on the report of the bill last year. Mr. FOCHT. Whose duty is it to keep these people out of this country if they know they are coming in and paying to come in and violating the law? Mr. O'BRIEN. It is the Department of Immigration. Mr. FOCHT. Yes, sir. Mr. O'BRIEN. Here is a statement from the report on the bill of last year: The need for this legislation appears from the facts set forth in the annual report of the Commissioner of Immigration for 1931 as follows: "For the 21 years, from 1907 to 1927, a total of 271,197 alien seamen deserted at seaports, and this number, added to the recorded desertion since then, brings the figure to 307,320 in just 25 years, or an average of 12,292 per year. Since the passage of the 1924 act, 97,742, an average of 13,963 yearly in the past 7 years (p. 3, S. Rept. 677, 72d Cong. 1st sess.)." Mr. FоCHT. They all paid someone to come in in violation of the law? Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, this is the amount of the desertions that they know of, and the amount that they do not know of might possibly, or probably would, double that amount. This is the record given by the masters of vessels to the immigration officials, but on investigation by the Department in the consulates of the number of desertions reported to the consuls who represented the vessels, the masters were shown to have given a number of at least 40 percent higher than that which was reported to our immigration officials. In other words, when the master was reporting to the consul of his own country he increased the amount of desertions by 40 percent over the amount reported to the immigration authorities of the United States. These are facts, Mr. Chairman. The captains of these ships know the amount of crew that they have, and the amount of crew that deserted, and they are making statements of fact, and when they made a statement to the immigration officials of this country they lied, because they underestimated the amount of desertions from their vessels. But when they reported to their own consuls, where the amount of men that they carried in the ships was known by the consul, they could not very well underestimate, and they had to tell the truth, and it was 40 percent greater. So that the 500,000 estimated in the report from this committee (H. Rept. 2922, 71st Cong. 3d sess.) is a low estimate. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have got to take a lot of other facts into consideration. Mr. O'BRIEN. Certainly, and we do take into account other facts, but we should take this when we do not have anything else. Mr. BLACKNEY. Even if we do take into account other facts, those figures are startling. We The CHAIRMAN. You are just like a fellow who puts money in the bank-you have got to give him debit for what is taken out. want to be a little fair about this. Mr. O'BRIEN. Let us proceed a little further, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. Those figures are not my figures. I am not trying to urge the authenticity of any figures. I am merely saying that those are figures. Mr. BLACKNEY. That is true, but it does not hurt us to know. Mr. O'BRIEN. This shows that during the census years 1920 to 1930 nearly 13,000 Chinamen were added to our population. Mr. FоCHT. When was that? Mr. O'BRIEN (reading): between the census years 1920 and 1930 more than 13,000 Chinese were added to our population, and also that 11,438 Chinese engaged at the various official shipping offices in the United States and in foreign consulates, mainly in China, were shipped on American vessels. While American seamen were walking around looking for a job. The CHAIRMAN. Go on. Mr. O'BRIEN (reading): From the same Senate report we quote the following: "With respect to American vessels engaged in foreign trade, the act of June 26, 1884, section 20, Navigation Laws, 1927, page 45, provides: 'Every master of a vessel in the foreign trade may engage any seaman at any port out of the United States, in the manner provided by law, to serve for one or more round trips from and to the port of departure, or for a definite time, whatever the destination; and the master of a vessel clearing from a port of the United States with one or more seamen engaged in a foreign port as herein provided shall not be required to reship in a port of the United States the seamen so engaged.' In other words, if you ship the seaman in Hong Kong and he is discharged in New York he would have to be reengaged by the master of the vessel. Mr. FoсHT. The sum of all of your evidence then this morning would be that the cause of it is a source of profit to the owners of the ships, and where do you put your responsibility for neglect to enforce the law, since you have made it so apparent that it is violated? Mr. O'BRIEN. We haven't got this law passed, Mr. Congressman, and we are trying to pass this law in order to prevent this condition being maintained. Mr. FOCHT. No; but we have a law here requiring certain conditions to be complied with before anybody can come into this country, a foreigner. Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, you see, under the existing law the man can come in that way-under the existing law. Mr. FоCHT. Oh, I see. Mr. O'BRIEN. And they come in under the guise of seamen. They are not really seamen. They are what Mr. Furuseth terms "mala fide seamen.' Mr. SCHULTE. Mr. Witness, the statement has been made here that there are not 500,000 seamen in the whole world, has it not? Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. Mr. SCHULTE. The report of the Immigration Bureau states that during the year, this last year, 951,642 alien seamen were examined. In the fiscal year of 1931, 1,171,690 were examined. Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, that would be, Mr. Congressmen, because those seamen would be coming into the United States. Mr. SCHULTE. That is:not the question. The answer is that there was not 500,000 seamen in the world. Mr. O'BRIEN. But I want to point out to you that there is a possibility that there would be an error there if you take it from that point of view. Mr. SCHULTE. Wait a minute. What do you mean, an error? These are the figures given by the Commissioner of Immigration. Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; but that is a yearly report, and some of those seamen would be coming in and out of the United States maybe 12 times in a year. The CHAIRMAN. That is right. Mr. O'BRIEN. Consequently, if you were to look at it from that point of view, it may be an error?. Mr. SCHULTE. What if they did not? Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, they generally do. Mr. SCHULTE. How many seamen-you are a member of the seamen's union? Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. Mr. SCHULTE. You are supposed to know how many seamen there are in the world, aren't you? Mr. O'BRIEN. No. Mr. SCHULTE. Or approximately; they belong to your organization. How many seamen are there? Mr. O'BRIEN. In 1929 we had 105,000 men in our organization, in the United States. Mr. SCHULTE. How many seamen are there in the world, approximately? Mr. O'BRIEN. That is a very difficult thing to estimate. Mr. FоCHT. What kind of people do you have in your organization? Mr. O'BRIEN. In the first place, Mr. Congressman, let me tell you something: The number of seamen varies. Even the number of seamen in the United States has gone down in the last 13 or 14 years. The number of ships that the United States had has gone down. The numbers have decreased. Consequently, the number of seamen goes down with the number of ships. Mr. SCHULTE. Can you get us some ocean-going seamen who will testify? Mr. O'BRIEN. I have been on the ocean. Mr. SCHULTE. I mean in recent years, someone who knows the figures. Mr. O'BRIEN. There is not a seaman-I do not believe there is a seaman that can tell you definitely the number of seamen that there are. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much. Mr. UNDERWOOD. Just one question, Mr. Chairman. As I understand it, it is your contention that conditions as they exist today result in one of the biggest leaks or holes that we have in our immigration laws, the bootlegging of aliens into this country? Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes, sir. Mr. UNDERWOOD. And it is your contention that the only way that can be stopped is by proper investigation upon the arrival of the vessels here? Mr. O'BRIEN. That is the proper way to do it. Mr. UNDERWOOD. There is no other way to reach it except by an investigation? Mr. O'BRIEN. There is no other way to stop it. The CHAIRMAN. An investigation would do a whole lot. Mr. O'BRIEN. By law, of course. Mr. UNDERWOOD. You have a law to authorize an investigation. That is necessary. Mr. O'BRIEN. You do not get anywhere, Mr. Chairman and ladies and gentlemen of the committee, except through legislation. A great number of the bills or laws that pass are construed by departments, and the result is that in a great number of cases we are being run by rules and regulations rather than by law. Mr. FOCHT. Yes; the same as the N. R. A. right now. Mr. O'BRIEN. I do not know about the N. R. A., but I am speaking now about rules that come from the departments; I am not speaking about the departments now any more than I am speaking of the departments in the past Mr. UNDERWOOD. Has not evidence been adduced by the Department showing that certain ships have arrived here with, for example, a crew of 300, and have gone out with 50 less, say 250? Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. You see, here is the situation on that question, Mr. Congressman: A ship comes across from Europe and she has on board maybe a couple of thousand passengers. That necessitates the engagement of quite a number of stewards to attend to the requirements of those passengers. When the vessel arrives the passengers, of course, go ashore, and when she is going back to Europe she probably will carry only 200 passengers. Now, in order to cut down their expenditures they release quite a number of those stewards and go back with a small crew. Mr. UNDERWOOD. Has it not also afforded a lucrative business for those engaged in the business of getting these aliens in this country? Mr. O'BRIEN. You bet it has. Mr. Furuseth has all those figures on the amount and costs of bringing of Chinamen into this country from Hong Kong, and it runs into $1,000, sometimes $2,000. The CHAIRMAN. Now, a few years ago I lost a few votes where I wanted to investigate that thing about Chinamen that were brought in in crates and so on, and a great restriction was afforded. They believed in restriction. They beat the investigation. We were going into Habana and show conspiracy between some American group and some people out of Habana, and somebody brought in Mexicans that were making a business of smuggling these Chinese, and we wanted to make an examination, and these great gentlemen that we have on the floor that call themselves constitutional lawyers said that there was nothing to investigate. Mr. FOCHT. As I understand it, then, the Immigration Department is not wholly at fault or at fault at all, but they have not sufficient law to enforce what you have in mind, and that is what you want now, to aid them with a law to do this thing? Mr. O'BRIEN. That is what we want. Mr. FOCHT. Now you say "nationalities"-what nationalities can belong to that, just Americans? Mr. O'BRIEN. American citizens, and everybody in that organization must be eligible to become an American citizen. Mr. FOCHT. Of course, that would exclude Chinamen under the Exclusion Act? Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. Mr. FOCHT. You say all these Chinamen are in here. I don't see where they are. I don't see a Chinaman any more. The CHAIRMAN. Come down my way. There used to be lots of them in town here. There are none of them in my town. Mr. O'BRIEN. Maybe there are not as many laundries here as there used to be. Mr. SCHULTE. Has the gentleman ever gone down Fourth or Fifth Street? Mr. Fоснт. I don't know. Mr. SCHULTE. It depends on the community. Mr. O'BRIEN. There was a case down in Norfolk about 10 or 12 years ago about the smuggling in of Chinese. They were smuggled in and the captain was sent to jail in that case, I think the mate also. But that statement can be easily verified. The CHAIRMAN. I have had brought to my attention some years ago stories where they smuggled in people from Mexico and then when they were about to be caught they threw them overboard; they threw some of these people overboard in burlap bags. Mr. O'BRIEN. That is an old trick. Mr. FOCHT. That has been practiced, has it? Mr. O'BRIEN. That was practiced many years ago in the slave trades. The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. O'Brien. We thank you for your statement. I will now call on Mr. Mayper of the Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference. STATEMENT OF JOSEPH MAYPER, CHAIRMAN AND COUNSEL, TRANS-ATLANTIC PASSENGER CONFERENCE, NEW YORK Mr. MAYPER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I will try to be as brief as I possibly can. I represent the Trans-Atlantic Passenger Conference, the members of which are practically or nearly all of the passenger-carrying countries crossing the Atlantic: The Anchor Line, Anchor-Donaldson Line, Canadian Pacific Steamships, Cosulich Line, Cunard White Star Limited, Fabre Line, French Line, Furness Line, Gdynia-America Line, Hamburg-American Line, Holland America Line, Italia Line, National Greek Line, North German Lloyd, Norwegian America Line, Scandinavian-American Line, |