The CHAIRMAN. Then, suppose that every person on that boat has a visa as a seaman.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And I know some of them obtain them fraudulently. How are you going to determine that?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, of course, it is assumed that if you pass this legislation you are going to enforce it, and the only way you can enforce it is by appointing people to do this work. Now, they have at the present time to examine the people in quarantine. I cannot see a great deal of difference between examining them as to whether these people are bona fide seamen or not.

Another thing: It would be very easy to determine by the amount of people that are aboard a ship in comparison with the same type of vessel, tonnage, as to whether that vessel was carrying more than a right complement, and that because of the extra number of seamen on board the ship, or the people who are posing as seamen, an investigation as to why this ship was carrying so much larger crew than any of the others. Now, you know that vessel owners do not as a rule put more than a complement required by law on the vessels, and if a vessel comes into a harbor with, say, 10 men where the law only calls. for 8, it would not require a great deal of intelligence on the part of the person who is examining these men or the ship to discover that there were two men in excess of the amount required by law or required of a vessel of that type and tonnage.

Now, that could be done very easily. It does not require a great deal of machinery to do that.

The CHAIRMAN. We do not want to go into that.

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is the way to do it, Mr. Chairman, in my estimation.

.The CHAIRMAN. Then you would have to also hold up that ship for a certain length of time.

Mr. O'BRIEN. About 15 minutes, probably.

The CHAIRMAN. To examine a crew of 800?

Mr. O'BRIEN. In the first place, the amount of crew that would be aboard that ship in the deck department, say

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Your steward's department alone usually carries about 350.

Mr. O'BRIEN. That depends upon the type of vessel, of course. Those vessels as a rule do not have that many. The steward's department has to be examined now anyway.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not say that with any criticism, but I do not see how you could do it, because I myself single-handedly, as a member of the Committee on this un-Americanism, examined 350 men in the steward's department on one big boat, and it took me from 7 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock at night, and I had the assistance of the Immigration Department and every other available assistant, and there were 350 aboard the boat, and I tell you I do not see how you are going to examine a crew of 800 if you had a crew of 800. Mr. O'BRIEN. There are very few vessels with a crew of 800, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Anything else you want to say?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I want to say that there was a substitute offered, substitute bill, by the Department of Labor, and that we have here a statement on that substitute which we would like to file.

It is rather strange, Mr. Chairman, that the Departments are fighting this bill. For many years the shipowners have been unanimous, whether they are American or foreign, against this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Listen-I am willing to go as far as you

Mr. O'BRIEN (interposing). I just want to make a statement, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Go on.

Mr. O'BRIEN. They are unanimously against this bill. Now, if it were a question of competition between the American and the foreign shipowners, one would be led to believe that the American shipowners would be for this bill instead of being opposed to it, unless there is some possibility of an alinement between the foreign shipowner and the American shipowner. I have in my hand here a memorandum of an objection of the International Shipowners Federation, Ltd., which in my estimation bears out my contention that there must be some alinement. I want that copied.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all right, if you want to put it into the record.

(THE DOCUMENT HERE SUBMITTED BY MR. O'BRIEN APPEARS IN FULL AS FOLLOWS):

THE COMPANIES (CONSOLIDATION) ACT, 1908

COMPANY LIMITED BY GUARANTY AND NOT HAVING A CAPITAL DIVIDED INTO SHARES

Memorandum of Association of the International Shipping Federation (Ltd.) 1. The name of the company (hereinafter called "the Company") is the International Shipping Federation (Ltd.).

2. The registered office of the company will be situate in England. 3. The objects for which the company is established are:

(1) To federate for the purposes hereinafter expressed or some of them associations of shipowners formed for the support or protection of shipowners or the promotion of defense of their interests and associations formed by shipowners or other persons or for any other objects which the company shall consider analogous or conducive and whether incorporated or not incorporated and whether formed in the United Kingdom or abroad and whether already existing or hereafter formed and their nominees.

(2) To consider all questions affecting tke interests of the shipping trade and other trades connected therewith and to do all such things as may seem expedient with a view to the promotion of such interests.

(3) To procure the adoption, improvement, repeal, abrogation, or alteration of any laws, maritime contracts, usages, and customs in relation to such trades which it may seem to the company desirable to adopt, improve, repeal, abrogate, or alter, and to oppose delay and resist any enactments, rules, regulations, bylaws, customs, or usages which may seem adverse to the interests of such trade or any department thereof.

(4) To indemnify any persons and companies interested in the shipping trades or other trades connected therewith against losses, liabilities, and contingencies in relation to any such trade, and generally to carry on any kind of guaranty and indemnity business other than employers' liability insurance.

(5) To establish and maintain in any parts of the world bureaus or registries for engaging the services, whether in relation to navigation or management of ships or vessels, or in loading or discharge of cargoes, or any other operations, whether on land or sea, of officers, managers, stewards, clerks, messengers, servants, seamen, firemen, laborers, and other persons employed in any such business and for collecting and supplying information to members of the company and others in relation to any of the said businesses, and to supply such services and information accordingly, whether gratuitously or otherwise, as may be deemed expedient.

(6) To communicate with any other like federation, association, or company, whether incorporated or not, in any parts of the world, and concert with it in promoting measures of any kind which the company is authorized to promote.

(7) To diffuse amongst the members information on all matters affecting the shipping trade, and to print, publish, issue, and circulate such papers, periodicals, books, circulars, and other literary undertakings as may seem conducive to any of these objects.

(8) To raise funds for any of the purposes of the company, whether by entrance fees or periodical subscriptions from members or voluntary contributions from members or other persons, or otherwise.

(9) To purchase, take on lease or in exchange, hire, or otherwise acquire any real or personal property and any rights or privileges which the company may think desirable, and to hold, build upon, manage, improve, and develop, and to sell, lease, mortgage, or otherwise dispose of any such real or personal property rights or privileges for anv estate or interest therein.

(10) To construct, equip, maintain, and alter or reconstruct any building or works necessary or convenient for the purposes of the company.

(11) To invest and deal with any moneys of the company not immediately required in such manner as may be determined.

(12) To borrow or raise and secure the payment of money in such manner as the company shall think fit.

(13) To undertake and execute any trust the undertaking whereof may seem desirable, and either gratuitiously or otherwise.

(14) To transfer all or any part of the undertaking, assets, and liabilities of the company to any federation or association having objects altogether or in part similar to those of the company, or to amalgamate with any society or association having objects altogether or in part similar to those of the company.

(15) To enter into any arrangement with any authority, supreme, local, municipal, or otherwise, or any association or company, incorporated or unincorporated, in furtherance of any of the objects of the company, and to obtain from any such authority, association, or company any rights or privileges which may seem conducive to any of the objects of the company.

(16) To admit any members, whether eligible or not for membership, to be honorary members of the company, and to confer on any person contributing to the funds of the company without constituting them members such rights and. privileges as may be legally granted to persons not being members of the company. and on such terms as may be expedient.

(17) To do all such other lawful things as are identical or conducive to the attainment of the above objects or any of them.

4. The liability of the members is limited.

5. Every member of the company undertakes to contribute to the assets of the company in the event of the same being wound up during the time that he is a member or within 1 year afterward for payment of the debts and liabilities of the company contracted before the time at which he ceases to be a member, and the costs, charges, and expenses of winding up the same and for the adjustment of the rights of the contributories amongst themselves such amount as may be required, not exceeding £1,000.

COMPOSITION OF THE INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING FEDERATION LTD.

Board of directors: Britain, E. Pembroke, 34 Leadenhall Street, London, E. C., shipowner; Sweden, A. O. Wilson, Gothenberg, shipowner; Germany, P. Ehlers, Hamburg, shipowner and doctor of law; Denmark, C. Kronman, Copenhagen, Chairman Danish Shipping Federation; Holland, J. Visser, Rotterdam, delegate for Shipping Federation of Holland; Belgium, J. Langlois, Antwerp, ship broker; Holland, J. Vink, Amsterdam, shipowner.

COPY OF THE REGISTER OF THE GENERAL COUNCIL OF THE INTERNATIONAL SHIPPING FEDERATION LTD.

Name, address, and occupation: Jacques Langlois, 7 Quai Van Dyck, Antwerp, average adjuster; Maurice Ortname, 15 Canal des Brasseurs, Antwerp, ship broker; K. Reinhard, Borsen, Copenhagen, shipowner; A. O. Anderson, 22 Ameliegade, Copenhagen, shipowner; C. Leist, Norddeutscher Lloyd, Hamburg, shipowner; Paul Ehlers, Adolphsbrucke, 2, Hamburg, doctor of law; J. Vink, Messrs. Hudig, Voder & Co., Amsterdam, ship brokers; E. Indebeton, Sveriges, Redareforening, Gothenburg, master mariner; A. O. Wilson, Sveriges, Redaregorening, Gothenburg, shipowner; Thomas L. Devitt, 13 Fenchurch Avenue, London, E. C., shipowner; T. F. Harrison, 67 South John Street, Liverpool, shipowner; R. M. Hudson, Tavistock House, Sunderland, shipowner; Henry

121198-35- -2

Radcliffe, the Docks, Cardiff, shipowner; Sir Walter Runciman, bart, Masonic Building, Pilgrim Street, Newcastle-on-Tyhe, shipowner; F. S. Watts, 7 Whittington Avenue, London, E. C., shipowner; J. Visser, Messrs. Wambersie & Sons, Rotterdam, ship broker.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to say this to the seamen's union. I will go as far individually-I am talking for myself now

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to see an American merchant marine with an American crew on it and keep every alien off the American boats that are subsidized by American money.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to see them like other nations, like the Japanese or English; when their boat comes in with a crew they have a hundred percent British crew or a hundred percent French crew. We have got the League of Nations on every boat that we own or control. It is only from the practical standpoint that I am thinking of this now. I think there is another method of getting around this instead of complicating this thing and making it so intricate, that the great constitutional lawyers would come in and say that "This is unconstitutional and interfering with property rights", and all that sort of stuff. We want to get at the evil. Your evil is that there are a lot of desertions from some of the boats. That is correct, is it not? Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. And the reason for that is that some of the so-called "American boats", instead of taking American crews, pick up a lot of other kinds of crews of different nationalities, and some of their purposes are not to act as a crew but to use that as a way of smuggling into the United States.

Mr. O'BRIEN. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. And your purpose is to examine the crew before they land in the United States to determine whether they are bona fide seamen. Isn't that practically the sum and substance of your proposal?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, we want this condition changed. We do not want, Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). Well, I want to change it with you. The question is whether that is the best way to do it.

Mr. SCHULTE. The best way to do it is to place the responsibility squarely on the shipowner and the captain of the ship when he employs the seamen. That is what we are trying to do, Mr. Chair

man.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anybody else here that wants to speak for the bill?

Mr. FOCHT. Let me ask a question. He has not brought out the real point about it at all. To have such a large crew as that there must be some motive on the part of the people that own the boat. What is the motive, mercenary or what?

Mr. O'BRIEN. The motive has been to get money from men that are brought in here that could not land in this country under the immigration laws. Chinamen have been smuggled in here, and all other types have been smuggled in, and they have paid the captains and officers of those ships.

Mr. FOCHT. Isn't there someone functioning in the Department of Labor that will look into that with the evidence that you have here?

What do they do about it when you tell them? What would they do now with what you have said? You have answered my question, and they neglect to do their duty, you think then, the Department of Labor?

Mr. O'BRIEN. They are right here present.

Mr. FOCHT. Well, let us continue from that. Have you any evidence about them using that method to bring these people in here in violation of law and bootlegging aliens in that way?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes, we have.

Mr. FоCHT. You have?

Mr. O'BRIEN. These statements have been made for the last 12 years by us, and have been proven to be true.

Mr. SCHULTE. May I interrupt you at this particular time? You are a bona fide seaman, I take it?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHULTE. You have sailed the seas?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SCHULTE. While on board ship have you yourself noticed any of this smuggling going on, bringing men into the United States?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, I haven't sailed on the ocean for many years prior to the passage of the Seamen's Act. I have been sailing on the Lakes, and consequently I am not in a position to say personally, because the last time I sailed on the Atlantic was in 1908. But I have been sailing on the Great Lakes, and of course the situation is altogether different there.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Does your organization have any concrete evidence of the bootlegging in of immigrants?

Mr. O'BRIEN. Well, we have brought that to the attention of Congress so many times that this time I did not think it was necessary, Mr. Congressman, to bring anything down at all, because, really, the argument on this bill has been exhausted.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been a committee print made here of the last hearing, and there is no evidence at all. I agree with the witness that there is a need

Mr. SCHULTE (interposing). Mr. Chairman, you say there has been a print of the hearings made. I have not seen any of the hearings. The CHAIRMAN. I asked the clerk of the committee yesterday to have one delivered to each member.

The CLERK. The last hearings that were printed were delivered to the office of each member of the committee yesterday.

Mr. SCHULTE. Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt the chairman at this moment, your viewpoint and mine are entirely different. I am in favor of the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not get me right.

Mr. SCHULTE. Yes, I do.

The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to say that there is an evil of what we are talking about here.

Mr. SCHULTE. That is right. We are trying in an humble way to get at the evil. Mr. Chairman, let me interrupt you at this moment again, I think you interrupted me.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go on.

Mr. SCHULTE. Let me make this statement, that there was testimony last year on the alien seamen bill by seamen who have sailed the seas for many years, who have admitted by forced testimony that