209. These men really served in the old days for honour and glory?-The Volunteers, yes.

210. Would not it be easier to pay them that honour and glory in some way instead of cash-say the Colonel of a Territorial Battalion was rewarded with a knighthood? In the presence of the hon. Member who said he had served as a Volunteer, I do not like to use the word picnic, but the Volunteer life was a very different life from the serious work which has to be done by the Territorial Army. The Territorial Army is seriously trained in a military sense, and the Volunteers generally were not.

211. I see. It always struck me if they got more honour and glory they would be prepared to take less money, and I think that would be economy from the public point of view? The Territorial Force certainly won its share of honour and glory in the war, but we do not find they come for less money because of that.

Mr. Penny.

212. You mentioned that the Territorials were seriously trained, and you also mentioned that their bounty had been reduced, and their pay would be reduced according to any reduction made in the regular Army. What saving do you think could be effected at the present time if the Territorials were paid what you think would be sufficient for them for their training? I think at the present time I could not express any opinion on that point, because, having got the Territorial Force on its feet again, it is quite clear that our first duty is to get it up to somewhere like its establishment. When we have done that, and have seen what the prospects of recruiting are like, when the country is more prosperous again and employment is better, then will be the time when one can decide, or, at any rate, form an opinion, as to how much might be saved on pay and bounty taken together.

[Continued.

213. Did I understand you to say that a Committee was considering this position at the present time?-A Committee is sitting upon the way to spend the £350,000 taken for the Militia. We considered very carefully the question. whether the Militia might not be tacked on to the Territorials SO as to be a sort of special section of the Territorial Army, but the Territorial Commanders do not like that; they say it is draining them of their best Therefore the Militia has to be a separate organisation.

Mr. Wise.

men.

214. What is the per capita granthow much? There are a number of different grants. There is a grant of so much per head for clothing, so much per head for accoutrements, a grant to each Association for the general establishment charges out of which they pay their own Association office, and also pay the general expenses of their regiments, and the upkeep of the drill halls, and things of that sort.

215. Has that come down last year?All those grants have been revised downwards as the cost of commodities and services is falling.

216. What happens to the surplus of £331,000 have you any control over that? -That is allowed, under the regulations, to be spent by the Associations on purposes that are in the opinion of the War Office desirable, though not absolutely necessary, for the benefit of the Territorial Force. We encourage Associations to spend any savings of that sort in such things as special recruiting campaigns, making drill halls comfortable from the point of view of an evening club, so that the men can go in there and have a bit of dinner and play a game of billiards, and that sort of thing-to make a social centre of the drill hall. All that is done out of these surplus funds.

217. Have you anything to say about the Channel Islands and the Colonial Militia? The only thing that we pay for the Channel Islands is the permanent staff of their Militia. They pay their own militiamen; that is an arrangement which has existed for very many years. As regards the Bermuda Militia and the Bermuda Volunteers, we are at present paying the whole cost of the Militiamen and Volunteers in addition to the permanent staff, but that is because the island has been going through

11 July, 1923.]

[Continued.

none too prosperous times during the war and immediately afterwards, and now that it is getting its balance on the right side again we are taking into consideration the fact that it has undertaken to pay to the British Exchequer for the next 15 years, I think, a contribution of about £4,000 a year in respect of the cost of the war generally.

218. I notice in regard to the permanent staff, in 1922-23 there were 122, all ranks, Channel Islands and Colonial Militia, and in 1923-24 it was reduced to 44; the cost in 1922-23 was £47,300, and this year it is £53,100.-That is again the old story, that the rate of pay has gone up so much.

219. Since last year?-Not since last year. I thought you were comparing it with 1914.

220. From page 34 of the Estimates do I gather that 44 men cost £53,000?-On page 36 there are the details of the cost of the Channel Islands and Colonial Militia. The Channel Islands Militia 's practically the same as before. The Malta Militia is £29,500 as against £25,000. In the Malta Militia we pay not only the permanent staff but the Militiamen; Malta is in such bad way financially that it is quite impossible to get any contribution out of the Island Government. The Bermuda Militia and Volunteers are a little higher; that is merely a matter of the strength; that is not permanent staff only, but permanent staff and men in the ranks.

a

221. But there is such an enormous reduction in number, and a big increase in cost. You have given the only reason. -That is it.

Chairman.

222. The permanent staff is 44. It was 122 permanent staff in 1922-23.-The 122 and 44 are the figures for the permanent staff only. The money with which the honourable Member was making a comparison shown under Subhead E of the table on page 34 of the Estimates, £53,100 in 1923-24 and £47,300 in 1922-23, is not the cost of the permanent staff, but it is the cost also of the men in the ranks in Malta and Bermuda, but not in the Channel Islands.

223. Have the men in the ranks increased in number?-Yes, it is a matter of the strength. I cannot say exactly how it fluctuates; I do not remember that there has been any alteration in the establishment. The Estimate is based.

not on the establishment, but on the probable strength.

Mr. Hannon.

224. About this extraordinary increase in the cost of the Territorial Army, working out the figures, it is £22 per head now as against £9 11s. in 1914. Do you think there is any hope of bringing that figure down, it seems an abnormal increase ?-There are causes in operation which will bring that figure down, as I explained, by the reduction of the bounty; the reduction of the bounty made a year ago has not yet taken its full effect. I think, perhaps, it would assist the Committee if I prepare an analysis of the cost of the two years and show how you get from a cost of something under £10 in 1914 to a cost of about £22 a head in 1923.

225. With regard to the Officers' Training Corps, the cost of which has gone up from £94,200 last year to £112,300 this year, why is there that increase this year? There is a note on page 35 of the Estimates which explains that: "The increase is on account of stores, ammunition and issues of fuel and light at camp, which were under-estimated 1922-23," I should explain that it is only since this new form of Estimates and the corresponding form of accounts has been adopted that we began to find out what these people actually cost us.

in

226. With regard to this sum of £20,000 for which you take credit as receivable for stores, and so forth, is there any reason why it should be £20,000 this year as well as last year, or is it a sort of conventional figure? That "Sums receivable" is for the sale of surplus property, and it is very largely a nominal sum; it means any drill hall which is disused when a unit is disbanded or broken up, and that sort of thing. It is largely at present a nominal We know a number of units have been broken up recently, and there is still property on the market to dispose of.

sum.

227. This very small item of £100 which you get from Alderney and the Isle of Man Government-what does it mean? is that a local contribution ?—Alderney pays us the sum of £100 a year in recognition of her obligation for military defence to the British Government.

228. That is Alderney's estimate of the price of Empire?-It is quite an important sum in the Alderney budget.

229. There is no contribution towards it from the other Channel Islands?-No.

11 July, 1923.]

[Continued.

230. And no local subscription in aid of the Territorial Force there?-The Governments of Jersey and Guernsey themselves pay their Militia. We provide the Permanent staff, but the Island Governments pay the Militia themselves. In that way they do contribute to the cost of their own defence.

231. The position with regard to our own Territorial Force is that the County Associations contribute nothing at all, and there is no local fund at all; the whole cost has to be defrayed out of grants that you make?-Substantially their only funds are derived from the Exchequer. That is not quite true; in Lord Esher's time, when he was Chairman of the County of London Territorial Association, there were certain private funds which were placed in his hands by some welldisposed persons, but, broadly speaking, the whole thing is now on the Estimates.

Colonel Spender Clay.

232. I do not see where the Divisional Commanders are down in the Estimates. I see there is a note on page 35 of the Estimates that £15,000 is transferred to Head IV. I think not very long ago it was the intention of the War Office to reduce Divisional staffs very considerably; has that been done?-If I may explain that £15,000 first. It is this: A Major-General of the regular Army holds two appointments, one is that of Divisional Commander of the Territorial Army in a certain area, and the other is that of Area Commander in the regular organisation. Up to this year we had charged the whole of his cost against the Territorial Army. The Territorial authorities pointed out that that was not quite fair; it showed the increased cost of the Territorial Army was higher than it really was. We have therefore this year transferred £15,000, which is about half the cost of those Divisional Commanders, from this item to Head IV, which is the staff of the regular Army.

233. How many Territorial Divisions are there now?-Fourteen, and, out of these, 11 of the Commanders are also Area Commanders; the three Divisions in and round London are not Area Commands. As regards any diminution of the Divisional staffs generally. 14 Territorial Divisions still exist, and each has still its Divisional General. I am not aware of any movement to reduce that.

234. Are they on full Major-General's pay?-On full Major-General's pay.

235. Some of them are LieutenantGenerals?-All Major-Generals, I think.

Chairman.

236. Still on Head II, on page 38 there is mention of the Yeomanry. Am I right in thinking that the Yeomanry consists of only 5,062 men ?-That is so; there are 16 regiments. The Yeomanry have been enormously reduced; there used to be 50 odd regiments and now they are reduced to 16.

237. Can you give us any idea of the cost of the Yeomanry at the present moment, and the cost of the Yeomanry in 1914-1915?-Lower down on page 38 there are the costs given of certain typical units of the Territorial Army. A Yeomanry regiment, which has now the low establishment of 296 all ranks costs £11,100.

238. Can you tell us what it cost in 1914?-I am afraid I have not that figure; there again, the Estimates were not worked out on those principles in 1914.

239. I know, but it would assist this Committee if we could find that out?I could get the estimated cost for 1914.

240. I must not ask you why you have reduced the numbers of men in the Yeomanry, because that would be a question of policy, but I should like to know how the cost of the men compares with the cost of a larger number in 1914-15?— I will have a statement of that sort prepared; I am afraid it will be only rough, but it shall be prepared as best it can.

Colonel Assheton Pownall.

241. All the Malta Militia cost is borne by Army funds. Do you know at all if Malta makes any grant-in-aid towards this Imperial expenditure?-No; Malta used to make a contribution of £4,000 a year, and, when the naval force in the Mediterranean was largely reduced and Lord Fisher was beginning to concentrate the Fleet in home waters, Malta was practically ruined. Malta had to a very large extent lived upon the Army and Navy establishments. Therefore we were obliged to excuse Malta even the £4,000 a year she had paid us from time immemorial; since then they have not been able to pay us anything.

242. With our Fleet going back to the Mediterranean they may be able to do something?-It may be that the Island will become prosperous again. I do not know.

11 July, 1923.]

[Continued.

Chairman.

243. For Item A, Educational establishments and Schools of Instruction." I see the gross cost is £1,526,600 as against £1,696,000, a reduction of about £160,000. There again I suppose you cannot tell us how this compares with 1914-15?-No; it is partly because a good many of the educational establishments are new, or have been altogether remodelled, and partly because the grouping of the Estimates is entirely different. Of course, that is only a summary of the 20 pages or so that immediately follow.

244. As there seemed to be so many, I thought we would deal with them by the items instead of taking them all at once. I am dealing with Item A for the moment. In the White Paper which is before the Committee there are certain comparisons made of a few of those establishments, which extend not to the total cost but only to the establishment, the personnel of the place; the other expenses were not identified in the Estimates before.

245. Turning to page 41 of the Estimates, under the heading "Explanations you give "The cost per cadet for 1922-23 was estimated at £458 18s. 7d. per annum. The cost per cadet for 192324 is based on an estimated number of 260 cadets at the Academy for that year." Where do we see what the cost of the cadets is at the present time per head? £453 1s. 6d., which is the figure given at the bottom of page 40.

246. These cadets are at Woolwich ?-At Woolwich Academy, where the gunners and the sappers are trained.

247. I ask that question because we have lately been asking the Air Ministry what their cadets cost.

Mr. Penny.] Will you also note that the cost per cadet at Sandhurst is £392 76. 9d. as against Woolwich £453 1s. 6d., which is a very big difference.

Chairman.

248. I understand the cost of a cadet at Cranwell is £480, without deducting the parents' contribution. I presume your figure for Woolwich does not deduct that? -No. The payments by parents are £30,500-the figure which is given immediately below the other on page 40.

43275

249. That contribution by parents is not included in the £453 1s. 6d. ?-No; that is the gross cost.

250. Therefore you manage at Woolwich to do it cheaper than the Air Ministry manage at Cranwell, if the figure I have given you is correct?-Before giving any definite answer to that I would rather like to see if their account covers the same items; if so, then Woolwich is rather the cheaper institution.

251. At Sandhurst the cost is £392 78. 9d. Can you give us any explanation of the difference? For one thing, Sandhurst is a larger place; it is a school, so to speak, for 700 boys, as against a school for 250. The other item to which a good deal of attention has been drawn in connection with Woolwich is the excessive cost of riding instruction there. When we first got these accounts out they brought to light, what nobody had realised before, that there was a section of Royal Artillery at Woolwich which did nothing, or practically nothing, but give riding instruction to the Woolwich cadets. We found that we were spending £77 a year on riding lessons for each cadet. That struck us as excessive, and in these Estimates we have reduced the cost of riding instruction from about £21,000 as charged in that account for 1921-22 on page 41 of the Estimates to £13,000, as the first step. I do not think that is the last word in reduction on that head. At Sandhurst the cost of riding is much less; for 700 cadets the animals and forage are about £5,000 only. That one item would make a very substantial difference in the cost per cadet at the two places.

252. The number of cadets at Sandhurst is about 700 and the number of cadets at Woolwich is 260, and you say that as the number of cadets increases so the cost diminishes, per head?-To some extent; the overhead charges are less where the number is greater.

253. The further explanation is that the cost of riding instruction at Woolwich is heavier, and that includes the purchase and keep of the horses?—Yes.

254. I happen to have now the figures for Cranwell, and I see at the present moment there are 85 cadets, and they cost £650 a year per head, but we were informed that it was intended to increase the number to 120 cadets, and that, when

B

11 July, 1923.]

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it was so increased, it was estimated that the cost would be £480 per cadet. That rather bears out your contention that with an increase in numbers the cost per head diminishes?-That undoubtedly is so in all schools, because the administrative staff of the school scarcely varies, whether the students are 100, 200, or 300. 255. Still, £480 per cadet is higher than it is at Woolwich, and I presume there is not any riding instruction in the Air Force?-I imagine not, but they may be teaching them to fly, for all I know.

256. But this figure is exclusive of the cost of flying training?-Those figures are not shown in the Air Force Estimates or accounts, and therefore I do not like to speak positively about them without an opportunity of examining them.

257. These are figures given to us by the Air Force officials?-Yes; they are an estimate, I suppose, prepared by the Air Ministry.

258. The £650 per head per cadet is the actual sum, but the £480 is estimated as what it will be when the numbers are increased from 85 to 120. Can you tell us whether they have very expensive chefs at Woolwich to cook for the cadets?—No, there are certainly no highly paid persons of that sort.

259. Because the Air Force have a chef at £266, a year, a second chef at £199 a year, an assistant chef at £152 a year, two vegetable cooks at £152 a year, three kitchen porters and scullery hands at £122 each, three stewards at £104, two carvers at £142, an accountant at £420, four silver men at £120, and 31 storemen, house porters and servants-costing in all £39,000. Is that sort of staff kept at Woolwich or at Sandhurst? We do not, I think, dignify anybody by the name of chef. The only similar thing shown on our staff is at Woolwich, where there is an allowance to the mess manager of £250, but he is the actual manager of the thing; he is the housekeeper rather than in the kitchen.

260. I suppose you have cooks?Undoubtedly.

261. Is £266 paid to the head cook?All that is shown in the Estimates is a sum in wages for the civilian subordinates. I can explore the question of the cooks at Woolwich.

Mr. Wise.

262. With regard to the Royal Military Academy, I notice in 1914-15 in your White Paper it says that 215 people were

employed for 280 cadets, costing £33,000 odd; whereas in 1923-24 the number of people employed was 221, the number of cadets was reduced to 260, and the estimated cost was £59,000?-£59,000 was the total of the whole establishment.

263. But you have, more people employed looking after a less number of cadets than in 1914?-That is so. The reason is that there are considerable changes in the education that is there given to cadets. For instance, there is a great deal done in the way of teaching gunnery, and so on, at Woolwich which was not done before. All that necessitates more subordinates to look after the guns and teach the drill and that sort of thing. There is further progress with science, and that means subordinates in labora tories and things of that kind. Further.

all these subordinates are now ex-soldiers and we do not get the same work out d an ex-soldier in 1922-23 as you got out of a plain civilian servant in 1914.

264. The cost has increased about £26,000?—Yes; that is partly due to the increase of pay of the officer staff and partly to the fact that wages are praetically double.

265. The same thing applies to the Royal Military College, I suppose?-In the Royal Military College there is also à striking increase. There are 359 civilian subordinates where there used to be 279.

266. I notice the cadets have gone down in the last year?—The cadets have gone down because we cannot get enough boys to fill Sandhurst, temporarily, but we shall get the full 700 back as soon as we can. I should like to say as regards the number of civilian subordinates that I have myself been much exercised about the growth of this number, and the Army Council appointed a Committee so that the thing might be thoroughly gone into. The Committee consisted of an officer of the Treasury, a military officer from the War Office, a representative from my Department of the War Office, and the Bursar of one of the great public schools. They went into the matter very thoroughly and they were unable to advise any substantial diminution in the number of the civilian subordinates employed.

267. I see there is an increase of 105 as compared with 1914-15? That is so. Sandhurst is near Aldershot, and in the good days in 1914 the officers at Sandhurst could borrow servants from the troops in Aldershot; an old soldier was