7 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

2141. Have you got separate recruiting centres for the Air Force as opposed to the Navy and the Army?—Yes.

2142. Is that really necessary?—Yes, it is considered to be so.

2143. Why cannot you co-operate with the other services when you want to get recruits. A man might be rejected for the Navy, or even for the Air Force, or the Army, on account of some disability which might in no way invalidate him from recruitment to another force?-The suggestion that the recruiting for the three services should be unified I understand has been under the consideration of the Government. They have not yet announced their decision, but I understand that the Committee which enquired into it was completely satisfied that the recruiting for the three services could not usefully be unified.

2144. They must be separate?-They must be separate.

2145. Does that involve a complete outfit of recruiting centres with offices, for instance, all over the country, separate staffs, and all the rest of it?-A complete outfit on a modest scale.

2146. How many recruiting centres have you over the country?-I am afraid I cannot answer that question.

2147. Can you give us any information as to where you have recruiting centres, and where there are also Naval and Military recruiting centres?-No, I am not able to state that. Of course have a centre in London.

we

2148. For instance, do you go to Oxford for recruits. There is a Naval recruiting centre there.-I do not think we have one in Oxford, but I cannot answer that question in detail.

2149. You must have a separate recruiting centre?—Yes.

2150. What reason is there for having a separate one?-I think it is obvious that the whole essence of voluntary recruiting is enthusiasm for the service on the part of the recruiter.

2151. I have a little experience of voluntary recruiting extending over a great number of years even in my short lifetime, and I know that with esprit de corps you have no difficulty in getting recruits. A recruit gets enamoured of the Air Force, and has an idea that he will be able to fly over the sea and over the land and over to Mesopotamia, and

he will be keen to serve in the Air Force, or in the Navy, or in the Army, as the case may be. Why cannot you set up a recruiting centre jointly with the Navy and the Army. I cannot understand any possible reason from a service point of view against it. You say the matter. has been examined into by an expert Committee.

Chairman.

2152. The witness says the Committee determined not to do it; they did not think it the proper thing to do.-It has been under the consideration of a Committee, and I believe they have come to that conclusion. I think it will be obvious to this Committee-and I am not speaking particularly from the Air Force point of view, but from the point of view of all three services-that the Navy and the Army do not feel that an Air Force officer can effectively recruit for them.

Mr. Hannon.

2153. On page 10 of the Estimates under Sub-head E with regard to the School of Technical Training at Halton, it says; "Other staffs, details not yet settled," and there is an increase from £11,575 last year to £21,433 this year, and there is a note (f) to it which says, "Includes £4,000 for Iraq." Can we have some information giving the reason for this very substantial increase?-The increase is mainly apparent. If you look at the total at the bottom of the page you will see it is an increase from £51,000 to £57,000 only. I think, for some reason with which I am not perfectly acquainted, the greater part of the figure appears in the lump sum. Again you will recollect the point has been already referred to in this Committee that the cost of living bonus which was £13,000 last year has practically disappeared this year, and there is a considerable element of the cost of living bonus to be added to the £11,000.

Colonel Stephenson.

2154. The cost of living bonus is £13,000 less, but the total is £6,000 more. You get the £13,334 taken off for 1922-23, which was included in the £51,000; it is not included this year, because it has gone, but the total is £57,000. If you

7 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

had the cost of living bonus continued, instead of being an advance of £6,000, it would be an advance of £19,000 or £20,000, but we do not get any benefit from the saving. You say we are no longer paying the bonus ?-No. I was examined last time about the reason for the increase, and I endeavoured to reply to that.

was

2155. The bonus is only shown at £185 this year, whereas last year it £13,334; so we ought to get a reduction in the total.

Chairman.] The figure carried forward is £57,000, whereas last year it was £51,000. My recollection is that the point was raised at our last meeting, and the answer given was that owing to regrading you could not find an exact comparison.

Colonel Stephenson.] I heard that answer given, but I am still not clear where the saving is.

Colonel Spender Clay.

2156. On page 12 of the Estimates I see an item of £29,000 for police. What are the police used for?-The police are used at the various depots, to see to the security of the very valuable stores.

2157. Is it necessary to keep County Police employed there ?-Yes.

2158. Cannot you do it with ordinary sentries at a considerably cheaper rate? -I think not, certainly at most, or almost all, of the places where they are employed. There is no considerable unit of the Air Force stationed at a place like Kidbrooke, for instance, but there would be perhaps only one dozen Air Force officers of the Stores Depot at the top, and the rest would be civilians.

Mr. Wise.

2159. How many policemen would be there? At a guess, I should think probably something like a dozen are employed to supply the necessary watches.

Colonel Spender Clay.

2160. What is the advantage of having isolated depots of stores? Could not they be more concentrated and have personnel there in order to guard them instead of spending £29,000 a year on police? An amount like that would help considerably towards having another squadron ?-I think only one of the three large store

depots could fairly be described as isolated, that is the one at Milton, in the neighbourhood of Swindon. Ruislip is on the Underground system, and Kidbrook is at Woolwich, in a large centre of population.

2161. I thought I was quoting your own words in saying that they were isolated, because you said there were only a very few officers and men of the Air Force there.-Very few of the Air Force are there. You were suggesting that Air Force personnel might be used in preference. A special company of the Air Force would have to be put there for the purpose; they are not there already in ordinary course.

2162. You suggest it is the most economical way to have policemen at a cost of £29,000 a year to guard these stores?-Yes, I think so.

2163. With regard to Sub-head G. Recruiting staff and expenses ", where are the headquarters of the recruiting staff?-In London.

2164. Are they in London entirely, and have you no recruiting officers in the country? Yes, we have recruiting officers in the country, but the headquarters are in London.

2165. And they have buildings in various parts of England for offices I suppose? Yes.

2166. Quite separate from the Army and Navy? Yes.

2167. It is quite possible that there might be an Army recruiting office and a Navy recruiting office, and an Air Force recruiting office in the same street?-Very improbable, but possible theoretically.

Sir Philip Pilditch.

2168. The recruiting staff is going up from 38 to 45 this year according to page 13 of the Estimates. This recruiting staff is for the men only. You do not recruit officers in this way?-This is for men only.

2169. I was under the impression that you got your supply of men through the boys. In paper No. 3 which you have handed in you give particulars of the Technical Training School at Halton, which is designed for the training of 2,500 boys, and provision is made at Cranwell for the training of another 1,500, making 4,000 boys in all who get a training for how long?-Three years.

7 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

2170. Then you have already, according to page 8 of the Estimates, 2,178 boys. That being the case is there any need to recruit men who have had their training outside when you have got these boys coming on. You have provision for 4,000 boys being trained at the same time. Why is there any need to recruit men direct as well? It is only for the most highly skilled trades that the boys are entered, and they do not completely fill even those trades.

2171. Is that for the most highly skilled trades amongst the men?—Yes.

2172. So the whole of the recruiting establishment is kept up for the unskilled part of the men?-For the unskilled and the semi-skilled, and for the men who enter as unskilled or semi-skilled whom we train to be skilled men.

2173. Is it for that purpose you want this considerable staff?-Yes, the number of men in any one year entered might be roughly put at about four times the number of the boys.

2174. Yes, but it is only a proportion of those you want to recruit, I understand? No, I say entered or recruited they are about four times the number of the boys. Supposing we enter 750 boys in a year we should probably enter about 3,000 men.

2175. That is assuming the Air Force is going to increase and expand rapidly? -No, that would be on a fairly normal basis for a strength of 33,000.

Mr. A. M. Samuel.

2176. Turning to the bottom of page 10 of the Estimates where the school of technical training for men at Halton is dealt with; am I right in assuming that a very large sum has been spent for capital expenditure on Halton?-A very considerable sum certainly. You will see the figures under Vote 4 on page 32.

2177. I see the amount already voted for it is £995,000, and it is expected there will be another £620,000, that is £1,500,000?-No, the total estimate for the work is shown to be £630,000, not one million and a half.

2178. But that is a pretty big establishment?-Yes.

2179. Am I to understand the amounts under the name of Halton are only amounts for the year, or is there a large sum in addition ?-Most of the masters at Halton appear on page 9 of the Esti

mates under the head of "School of Technical Training (Boys) Halton."

2180. They do not amount to much there, but on page 10 you will find the figure is £21,000?-No, that is for miscellaneous staff. I am afraid there has been a misprint there. The "Other staff, details not yet settled" ought not to be inset; it is simply a general heading for other educational staff of the Air Ministry establishments.

2181. That accounts for my doubt in the matter. Will you tell us about Halton; what do they do at Halton. Are they boys or men there?-Boys.

2182. Does it ever happen that there are not enough boys for the men to educate, and sometimes not enough educators to deal with the boys?-No, unless things have been mismanaged there ought to be the appropriate number of instructors to the number of boys.

2183. You tell me there ought to be, but will you tell me what there is. I happen to have lived at Wendover, so I have seen what is going on there Have you had any complaints that there have been at times there more boys than there are men to tackle, or at other times more instructors than there are boys to deal with? Not to my knowledge; no complaints, except in the sense that I have seen questions which the Honourable Member has put in the House.

2184. Yes, I have put questions. I raised these points either by question or by representation to Sir John Seely. What supervision is there at the present moment to prevent that sort of waste? It is an actual fact which did happen; I saw it with my own eyes; I lived at Buxbridge House, Wendover? Very great attention is given to the training at Halton by the Air Ministry. The Director of Training and Staff Duties has a very direct responsibility for the training, and he is immediately under the directions of the Chief of the Air Staff, who is very much interested in the

matter.

2185. What inspection is there from headquarters to see that this waste does not go on? There are officials from headquarters constantly going down to Halton.

2186. Let me tell you something I saw, which I think you will admit is waste. I saw a trolley go to Wendover station containing 12 men and a driver, to load camp bedsteads, which you and I could have loaded single-handed. What supervision

7 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

is there which allows a thing like that to happen? I imagine, if that was so, there were circumstances that may have justified it. It is possible the men were simply taking a passage to the station.

2187. I think not; they were all helping to unload-12 of them. It was a lorry full of bedsteads which I take it could have quite well been loaded by one or two men. What kind of supervision allows that sort of thing to happen?-The actual allocation of men for jobs like that must come, obviously, under the supervision of the Commanding Officer.

2188. Then he stands convicted on your own answer of not properly supervising. Again, I have seen a lorry come from Halton Camp to Wendover, empty, in order to bring back one parcel, taken out of the same train as I have come by, to go back to Halton Camp. What supervision is there which allows that?Obviously I cannot be aware of the circumstances in which a particular lorry went there.

Chairman.] It seems to me that these questions ought to be put to the person who was in charge at Halton at that time. What date was this?

Mr. Samuel.] It was some time ago. I am putting the questions because I should like to know what supervision there can be which allows that to happen. Chairman.] I do not see that the witness can tell us that. He was not there. I suggest the witness might either see the Commanding Officer and ask him if he has any explanation to make, or somebody who was in charge over these particular people should come forward and give evidence.

Mr. Samuel.

2189. I will ask another question which will bring it cleaner to the point. How many boys or men are there receiving instruction, and how many instructors are there? I think the answer to that question will be found in Paper No. 3. "The School of Technical Training, Halton, is designed for the training of 2,500 boys and then there follows after that the list of officers and teachers.

2190. That is so, but it does not tell us how many boys are actually there to be taught at any one time, when these teachers are there?-At the present moment there are certainly not 2,500. I

think at present there are about 1,600, but I should not like to be held to that figure, as I have not it before me.

Paper.

2191. In Paper No. 3 there is an estimate of £162,036 for the school of technical training at Halton, and there are a variety of officers set out as being employed there. I presume those officers are there at the present time?—Yes.

2192. Can you let us know at our next meeting how many boys are at the school at the present time and are looked after by these people?—Yes.

Mr. Samuel.

2193. Is there another establishment like Halton in England?-Like it in what sense? It is rather similar to the "Fisgard," the training establishment for the E.R.A. in the Navy-the boy artificers. I understand that the Army are setting up a rather similar establishment for their technical groups, at Blandford.

Mr. Harmsworth.

2194. Going back for a moment to Cranwell, can you tell me what the cost is per head for the cadets?-I have already undertaken to produce some figures on that.

2195. At the same time, would it be possible for you to give us the cost per cadet at Sandhurst, or some similar college, so that we have something to compare it with ?-I am afraid I cannot undertake to produce figures for the Army and the Navy.

2196. Is Halton the biggest of all these training depots. You have one at Uxbridge?-Uxbridge is not primarily a training depot. Halton is the biggest. It is the most important. There may be actually a larger number of men at Manston.

2197. I was wondering, because the cost is about £35,000 for one and about £2,000 for the other, according to page 10. That is purely for staff, and not the actual cost of the depot? Under the heading "School of Technical Training (Men) Manston " I presume the figures given are the pay of the staff kept there? -Those are the civilian teachers. There are quite a few at Manston, compared with Halton.

7 May, 1923.]

[Continued.

2198. What is the reason for that?Because there are boys being trained for the highly skilled trades at Halton.

2199. But not at Manston?-At Manston it is men being trained.

2200. Men being trained for unskilled work? No, for the less skilled work, and a certain number for the skilled trades also.

Mr. Hannon.

2201. They would be R.A.F officer teachers? Probably N.C.O. teachers.

Mr. Harmsworth.

2202. At Halton, do they teach flying at all? No.

2203. They only teach about the machinery and so on?—Yes.

2204. On page 12 of the Estimates there is a large sum for natives and Indians in Iraq, Palestine, and Trans-Jordania, £306,620. In 1922 the figure for that was £145,120, that is to say, this year it is exactly double what is was last year? -I think I previously explained that that is merely an accounting phenomenon. We became responsible for a large number of services only on the 1st October last year, and there has been no increase, in fact, in the natives and Indians employed.

2205. You took over from the Army?Yes, on the 1st October.

2206. What exactly do these natives do? They are labourers of all sorts, both the followers associated with the troops, and the native batmen, and also the Labour Corps for Works services.

2207. Have you one vote for the money that is expended in Iraq and Palestine, or do we have to pick it up from little driblets as we go along?-It is voted in the Defence sub-head of the Colonial Vote. As you are aware, our figure included in the Estimates is given in the notes at the bottom of page 2 of the abstract, under (c).

sum

2208. Yes, it says "Of this £5,040,800 is a repayment by the Middle East Department? Yes.

2209. But you spend it?-We spend it. 2210. I presume whilst we are on these Estimates we can go into the money that is actually spent, and not wait until we get the Middle East Department?-Anything on our gross Estimates, I take it, would be proper to be discussed here.

2211. Where can we see exactly where the 5 million pounds is spent. Must we

take it in little bits?-It is shown in fact under the appropriations-in-aid sub-head of each Vote.

2212. I want to know where it is spent? -It is not shown separately on the debit sub-heads of the Vote.

2213. Can we have made out for us the total sum which the Air Force spend in Iraq, and the different heads under which it has been put? That can easily be done.

2214. So that we can discuss it together, because it is so very difficult to discuss the expenditure of 5 million pounds spent in Iraq when it comes in little driblets under different headings, as, for instance, in the one we are on now, £306,000 for natives and Indians in Iraq.

Chairman.] We have already discussed that, and the Committee have come to the conclusion that the Estimates are not presented in the clearest possible way. You cannot discuss the policy of employing these natives in Iraq or Mesopotamia. All you can discuss is, can you get them cheaper.

Mr. Harmsworth.

2215. I did not mean that, exactly. I raised the point to see whether we could have made out on a piece of paper the total sum spent in Iraq by the Air Force, and the different headings under which it is spent, so that we can judge it as a whole, because it is so difficult to take it up bit by bit, and judge, not whether we think the policy is right, but whether we think the expenditure is justified. We may find they spent so much for flying, so much for aeroplanes, so much for defence for particular depots where they keep the aeroplanes, and so on?-Of course, works would be shown in Vote 4. There is no difficulty at all in producing an analysis of how that 5 million pounds is allocated under each sub-head of each Vote.

2216. A question was put as to whether the training depots should not be amalgamated into one. Is it absolutely impossible for the Stores Depots to be amalgamated into one, or are they all in different parts of the country supplying different areas? They are arranged broadly according to functions, and not according to geographical area. We have engines at one place, aeroplanes at another, and instruments at another.