Commissioner MCKEOUGH. We merely made known to everybody that the act was operative, and if they wanted to buy, to come in and file their applications under General Order 60 that was prepared in keeping with the statute filed in the Federal Register. I think in the latter part of May we filed General Order 60.

Mr. BUSBEY. Did most of those applications come in from the various oil companies direct or through brokers?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. They all had to come in in the name of the applicant company.

Mr. BUSBEY. You did not receive applications from individuals, then, or people who might be classified as brokers?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. That could have been, but they would have to show pretty fully in their applications complete historical background of themselves as individuals or partners or corporate

entities.

Mr. BUSBEY. Does your record show those who made applications at that time?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. At what time, sir?

Mr. BUSBEY. After you offered these tankers for sale?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Our records are there, and they show exactly the date received and filed and what the disposition of any has been, of every applicant.

Are you directing your questions, Congressman, to the tanker picture or the over-all sales picture?

Mr. BUSBEY. The tanker picture.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. I assumed that that was true.

Mr. BUSBEY. I believe someone said yesterday that few applications came in from American companies or American citizens at that time.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. I think that our records show, Congressman, that up until about October or September, last September, there were not more than, as I recall the figure, and I am depending on memory in connection with hearings before Senator Wherry's committee, I think there were only eight applicants for American ownership and American registry.

Prior to that time, and the Commission acted favorably by a majority vote, in which I dissented, to sell to Americans for Panamanian registry. There was some 71 tankers sold to American interests for Panamanian registry; except in the case of 5 of the 71, the ownership remained in the American interests. In the other 66 of the 71 the ownership and the registry was in the Panamanian corporation. I voted "No." On every one of those sales I voted "No."

Mr. Pimper reminds me that prior to this agitation about the sales foreign, there had been a total of 90 T-2 tankers sold American. In addition to these 71 that I speak of, sold American, but Panamanian registry, 5 of the 71 remaining as to ownership in American interests with Panamanian registry. Now, the reason for that shift, I believe, was because at the time the ship was made to retain the ownership American, there began to be some interest manifested on the part of Americans to buy them American and keep the registry American. That, I think grew out of the agitation that began with relation to the sale of the so-called 100 tankers foreign. That 100 ultimately is reduced to a sum total of 83 and not 100.

Now at the time of that agitation we had relatively no applications. from American interests to buy them American and we had an adequate supply to not only accommodate the 83 foreign but to take care of every American that wanted to buy them, and have some left. That did not change until a later date. Before the Americans reached up to the level that we had available, it was well into October. It was about October 13.

Mr. BUSBEY. The tankers under Panamanian registry; were they sold to a Panamanian corporation or Americans interested in a Panamanian corporation?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. This we sold to the Panamanian corporation where the ownership rested in the Panamanian corporation poration wholly owned by American interests. Title rested in the Panamanian corporation, which was a controlled subsidiary of American interests; they were corporate entities.

Mr. BUSBEY. Mr. Chairman, I will not pursue that any further, but at a future date, I will ask one of the members of the staff to get more data from the Commission on it.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Are there any further questions?

Mr. HALE. I would like to make one or two inquiries of Mr. McKeough.

Turning to table 5 which is captioned "Tankers sold to United States Citizens for United States flag operations, under the Ship Sales Act of 1946," is that a complete tabulation of all tankers sold to American citizens since the enactment of the Ship Sales Act?

Mr. PIMPER. It is up to about January 20, sir. There had been subsequent to that time the sale of a few additional T-2 tankers. Mr. HALE. That is complete up to January 20 of 1948? Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Yes.

Mr. HALE. I do not understand your captions here. You have got a first table captioned, "Allocated for sale," which seems to be clear. I think that that figure is 262; is that right?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALE. Then you show that titles have actually been transferred to 133.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Yes.

Mr. HALE. Under your third column, you have that "Allocated from lay-up." Will you explain what that is? Does that mean that tankers were laid up and they were allocated for sale out of the reserve fleet?

Mr. PIMPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALE. I cannot understand why the totals in columns 2 and 3 should not add up to the total in column 1.

Mr. PIMPER. In addition to the 53, if I may say so, that come from lay-up, there are 80 that will come from the operating fleet to be sold. I am sorry. That is wrong. There remain of the 262 allocated for sale, having sold 133, there remain 129 yet to be transferred as to title. Of those 129, 53 are from lay-up, and the rest come from the operating fleet, sir.

Mr. HALE. Well, it may be unimportant, but I do not see why you have this column "Allocated from lay-up."

Mr. PIMPER. We were asked the question as to whether the vessels were being allocated from lay-up. If you extend it out and put

71869-48-pt. 1—13

another column, "Allocations from the operating fleet, titles not transferred," that might be done.

Mr. HALE. It would make the whole thing more intelligible. These ships that are allocated from lay-up, the title is not transferred. I am not quite sure from the testimony how long it is going to take to get those vessels out of lay-up and transferred.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. It is our plan and hope that those will all be out of lay-up and into the repair yards by the middle of February, about 2 weeks from now, we hope to have all of those out of the lay-up and into the repair yards. I think I ought to be a little cautious there. I think that I ought to say 3 weeks, rather than the 2 weeks, and then have it indicated that we have not met that date.

Mr. HALE. You think all of these 55 ships will be in operation after the month of February?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. No. Once they get out of lay-up into the repair yard, depending on the extent of the repairs, some of which is estimated to run as high as $650,000 to $800,000 and some $100,000 to $150,000, it will take that amount of time depending on the nature of the repairs.

Mr. HALE. Is the bottleneck in the repair yards?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. The repair yards, I am advised, at the moment are pretty well crowded, but by reason of the fact that some work that was heretofore allocated is moving out, we are hoping that we will not have any delay as a result of that, and if there be any, that it will be of a very temporary nature.

Mr. HALE. Then, just how many ships do you think will be made available in 3 weeks?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. I will have to yield to the expert of our

staff.

Mr. HELMBOLD. The number shown in the last column, Mr. Hale, the first 20 have already been reduced since the statement was prepared. I would guess that it is around 13 or 14. On the Liberty tankers, I think that that number has been reduced by two. We have ships coming out of lay-up almost every day. We think that all of the big tankers will be out within 2 weeks and perhaps, as Mr. McKeough suggested, the date of 3 weeks is a little better, 2 weeks is a little bit optimistic.

Mr. HALE. You think all of the big tankers will be out in 2 weeks, and you hope the Liberty tankers will be out in 3 weeks?

Mr. HELMBOLD. Yes, sir, substantially all of the Liberty ships. I want to say that there may be one or two of those large tankers, the T-2's, which may not be out within that time, because they are very heavily damaged. There may be some delay in obtaining repair parts for them; but altogether we hope to have that figure very substantially reduced.

Mr. HALE. This tabulation that I have in table 5 under "Allocated from lay-up," if I can read these rather blurred figures, you show 30 of T-1's and T-2's?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. I think that that is 20 of the ships. Mr. HALE. That is right; and 34 Liberty ships, and 2 of the T-1 MBT type ships. The total of those items is 56.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. That is right. We will accept the correction.

Mr. HALE. The total is wrong?

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. It should be 56.

Mr. HALE. The items are right, and the totals are wrong.

Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Yes, I am sorry. We probably did that about 10 o'clock this morning, and we may have been a little punchy.

Mr. HALE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions, gentlemen?

Mr. MCKEOUGH. I just want to clarify what Mr. Helmbold meant by "lay-up." Do you mean being out of the lay-up fleet or do you mean in operation?

Mr. HELMBOLD. In the repair yard.

Mr. KEOGH. The time element with respect to being put in operation depends on the time to put them in shape?

Mr. HELMBOLD. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will recess until 2 o'clock. The hearing will be resumed at that time. It is my understanding that there was general debate on the House this afternoon, and, therefore I think it will be possible for most of the committee, at least, to be present this afternoon.

It is certainly desirous for us to press along with these hearings as fast as is possible. Preceding the meeting at 2 o'clock, there will be an executive session of the committee with reference to some legislation which it is desired to report out today if possible.

We have finished with you for the time being, Mr. McKeough, and the committee will proceed at 2 o'clock. We thank you for your appearance and your cooperation, past, present, and future. Commissioner MCKEOUGH. Thank you.

We thank you for your patience, too, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. We will now recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12 noon, the committee recessed until 2 p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

(The committee reassembled at 2 p. m., in room 1334, New House Office Building, pursuant to the taking of a recess, Hon. Charles A. Wolverton (chairman) presiding.)

STATEMENT OF MAX W. BALL, DIRECTOR OF THE OIL AND GAS DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Our first witness this afternoon will be Mr. Max W. Ball, Director of the Oil and Gas Division of the Department of the Interior.

Mr. Ball, we have long looked upon you as one of the important sources of information in our Government and hope that you, in the light of the testimony that has been taken before this committee, in July last and then in December, together with what you have been able to glean from the questions that have been asked during the hearings when you have been present, that you will give us as full a picture of the present situation as it is possible for you to give.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, may I say before I start that I appreciate very much the consideration of the committee in excusing me from appearing this morning so that I could keep that long deferred appointment with the occulist.

When I was first asked to appear before this committee on Tuesday, I drew up a prepared statement on the assumption that I was going to be the first witness, which was what I had understood, and that what you wanted from me was a brief review of what had been done with reference to your nine points covered by your December 19 resolution.

Since then you have had witnesses who have gone into a great deal more detail with respect to some points, but if you wish I will read through the parts that have not been pretty well covered by your other witnesses.

The CHAIRMAN. I would prefer that you give it to us just as completely as you have prepared it, unless that in some way changes the plan that you would rather adopt.

Mr. BALL. No; I would be glad to go through it just as it is if you prefer to have me do it that way.

On December 19, 1947, your committee adopted and reported to the House of Representatives a resolution recommending nine measures, which, in the opinion of the committee would help to alleviate the fuel-oil shortage then confronting most of the Midwestern, New England, and Atlantic Coastal States.

The next paragraph is not particularly important under present circumstances.

The CHAIRMAN. The second paragraph does relate to the basis on which you are present, so that I would like for the second paragraph to be put in in full.

Mr. BALL. Your chairman has asked me to appear before you today to report on the extent to which these nine measures have been carried out, by the Federal Government, by State officials, and by the petroleum industry itself.

While the authority and responsibility for initiating such measures, or for further intensifying efforts already under way along the same or similar lines, are within the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior as to only three of the nine recommendations of your committee, the Department of the Interior, nevertheless, has exerted every effort to cooperate with, assist, and advise the Congress, other departments and agencies, State authorities, and the general public. It has likewise been working closely with the petroleum industry to accomplish the common objective of making supplies of petroleum products available to consumers as promptly as possible, and on an equitable basis.

I understand that you would like to have me summarize briefly all the responses that have been made to the committee's suggestions, so far as I know them, leaving to the representatives of other Government agencies a fuller presentation of their respective activities with respect to the committee's resolution.

1. Your committee called, first of all, for the exercise of existing authority to control exports

to place such prohibitions or curtailments on the exportation of fuel oil and other petroleum products for such period of time as may be necessary to alleviate such shortage.

The Department of Commerce has, for the past 6 months or more, been progressively reducing the issuance of export licenses for petroleum commodities to those foreign destinations that are subject to such control under Public Law 703. The volume of such shipments