cooperation because that crime would be cut out and designated as a Federal offense and the city police would extend that to the Federal Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Would kidnaping be a proper crime to make a Federal offense?

Mr. SWEENEY. From the statistics of our Commissioner Bolan this morning kidnaping is not a real problem in the city of New York. The number of kidnapings has not increased in the last 10 years. The number of arrests is 90 percent and a high percentage of convictions.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you find in the city of New York a public sentiment back of the police force, or do we get a little unmindful of the responsibilities?

Mr. SWEENEY. Those of the public that devote themselves to public questions are 100 percent behind the police departments, but unfortunately those people are in the minority. If you call public sentiment the disposition of a person who has witnessed a crime to relate the circumstances which he witnessed, I say no. The present psychology is not to tell the police, because the squealer is punished and the man who stands "pat" is not punished, and you will find that psychology among the poorer class is a great deterrent to the investigation of crime.

Professor RUSSELL. Can we do anything about that?

Mr. SWEENEY. I think the remedy suggested by District Attorney Crain to permit the district attorney to swear the witness at the scene of the crime would start off the investigation immediately following; to put the sanction on a police statement subsequently made or a contradictory statement; to give the district attorney the right of subpena and to punish if the subpena is not obeyed-I think if the district attorney is given that power that your problem will be solved.

Professor RUSSELL. If the average citizen felt that he could get police protection, don't you think he would be very happy to come forward with his testimony?

Mr. SWEENEY. We give the citizen 100 percent police protection; at least one tenth of our detectives are guarding witnesses in criminal proceedings. When we get a witness to a crime, we extend to him. every protection. If necessary, we pay his hotel bills and take him. out of town.

Mr. DARU. And after he has testified, he has no real fear, if he knows the fact, is that right?

Mr. SWEENEY. We sometimes secure positions for them in California or elsewhere.

Mr. DARU. Generally speaking, after he has testified and there is no reason to destroy him or his testimony, he is generally safe? Mr. SWEENEY. Positively.

Mr. DARU. Inspector, isn't it a fact with reference to the cooperation particularly between the New York City police department and the Federal Government that the Police Academy, in order to train policemen and detectives, devote part of the course to training them in Federal offenses and in the detection of Federal crimes such as counterfeiting and other crimes?

Mr. SWEENEY. Yes, and in the examination by the police department there are so many questions asked on Federal crime.

Professor RUSSELL. Do you have any difficulty in having witnesses returned from another State?

Mr. SWEENEY. We are not worried about getting witnesses out of New Jersey. If I had a detective who said that he pursued a prisoner and said that he went into the next State 5 miles before he got him, and he did not bring him back, the detective would be carrying a night stick.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for your suggestions.

I will now call on Mr. Peter I. Sicardi of the Bergen County Police. You have been listening to our testimony today in the hearings of the committee. What can you tell us that will be helpful?

PETER I. SICARDI. I just returned from the International Association of Chiefs of Police Convention in Chicago and the organization was heartily in accord with cooperating with the Federal authorities in every shape or form. We were the original organizers of the Federal Bureau of Identification paid for by the association. Since then it has been taken over by the Government through our solicitation and now it is in capable hands under Mr. Hoover.

I have listened attentively all morning to the speakers. To my way of thinking, Warden Lawes struck the keynote when he stated there was a war, that we were fighting a war and that we needed a Mussolini to pull us out of it.

The President has appointed a Mussolini, I believe, in Mr. Moley. I think we should take the bull by the horns and forget our American principles of freedom and have Congress pass legislation registering every person in the United States just as we did during the war. At the same time they can classify their fingerprints and centralize at Washington with our bureaus and have 4 or 5 bureaus to take care of that. Then, make that easily accessible to all police departments, and in that way we will get our fullest information in as short a time as possible.

At the same time the Government could go to work and form a chain of radio stations. You might have Major Jones of Station ABC-or whatever it may be. They would be what you call regular broadcasting channels. You could have regular broadcasting channels controlled by the Federal authorities. Under Federal supervision and control you will have your local municipalities in hand. With this radio equipment you could disseminate your crime statistics in a very short time and broadcast for any criminal that may be wanted, in a short while, and thereby come to the conclusion.

We can talk for days and days. We of the police group all have different ideas and different thoughts. If the Government is sincere and wants to help the police profession, we of the police profession are in accord with it and will go along with you and work with you 100 percent.

Professor RUSSELL. Do you find any difficulty in the prosecution of crime of witnesses escaping to Suffern, N.Y.?

Mr. SICARDI. We have no lines up on that end. We work as a unit. I might state that the Bar Association of the United States took up the matter of extradition. That would eliminate a lot of trouble.

Professor RUSSELL. What about witnesses? Do you find any difficulty in New Jersey? Witnesses in New York will go to a neighboring State and counsel in New York will ask for an immediate trial, and

then the case would have to be thrown out because the witnesses have to be extradited. What have you to say about that?

Mr. SICARDI. There is very little trouble about that. We have no trouble in our department.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We appreciate your cooperation.

May I ask, will Judges Forman and Patterson be with us tomorrow? (Judges Forman and Patterson rise.)

Gentlemen, if you do not mind, we will hear you tomorrow. wanted to have you testify today. It is getting late and I think that we will adjourn now.

Tomorrow at 10:30 in this room there will be a resumption of the hearing. Legal procedure will be the subject under consideration. I think much of what we have learned today will be of value tomorrow because we have learned the difficulties today. We have had the problem presented to us and I assure you it has been very ably presented. Tomorrow we hope to have the legal lights find a way to solve our various problems. That is all for this afternoon. You are all invited to be here tomorrow.

(Whereupon at 5 p.m. the subcommittee adjourned to August 15, 1933, at 10:30 a.m.)

INVESTIGATION OF SO-CALLED "RACKETS."

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, New York City, August 15, 1933. The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m. at the Bar Association, 42 West Forty-fourth Street, New York City, Senator Royal S. Copeland, presiding.

The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order. Yesterday we had two or three persons who had been invited and whom we had no opportunity to hear. Before we take up the legal side of the debate, we would like to hear from these gentlemen. The first one is Mr. Augustine J. Smith, secretary of the New York County Grand Jurors. We would be very happy to hear from you, Mr. Smith.

STATEMENT OF AUGUSTINE J. SMITH, SECRETARY NEW YORK COUNTY GRAND JURORS ASSOCIATION

AUGUSTINE J. SMITH. I do not known how much the public understands what the grand jury does or how it is constituted. There are 23 men chosen out of a panel and before them the district attorney brings cases. Out of the 23 men there must always be 16 present. There must be 12 to vote an indictment.

I was foreman of the grand jury in March and toward the middle of the session they brought before us a racketeering case. I am not going into the details of it too extensively, but it was in the fur business. There is a certain part of the business where certain things have to be done. The furs are sent out and then they are brought back.

A corporation was formed in Albany. It had a president and other officers, and they in turn hired a general manager. The general manager and others go to the fur industry and say, "We want you to join our association. You will be charged a percentage of your sales." You say, "What do I get for it?" and they say, "We will give you protection against labor troubles. We will see that your people, if they do not pay their bills-we will do our best to collect from them. There are two conditions: You cannot send your goods to anyone but those who are members of this association, and you must use our trucks. We will charge you a fee for that. If you do not join the association, may we call your attention to what happened over in Connecticut." That particular thing, if I remember correctly, was the blowing up of the front of one of these factories.

They continue, "We would also have to call your attention to what happened in New Jersey where a fire occurred. We would like to call your attention to what happened in the Thirties and Forties with stink bombs."

Stink bombs are very nasty and very disagreeable. They are made out of glass very much like the inside of a thermos bottle. They