Secretary JARDINE. They are usually plowed under or knocked down.

Mr. CRAMTON. In Michigan the stalks are cut and the corn is husked, so there is only the stubble to be treated as you suggested? The CHAIRMAN. We cut them in Illinois, too.

Mr. CRAMTON. If it is not cut you have the stalks to take care of. If it is cut there is a stubble to take care of. Ordinarily in farming practice a farmer would not do anything with that stubble except to plow it under?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. So pulverising that stubble to destroy the worms that might be in it is construed by you as being a part of the labor additional to the normal farming operations?

Secretary JARDINE. As I would construe it in the farming practice in that section if you cut the corn and leave the stubble and plow the stubble under to get ready for the succeeding crop, if we had to pulverize or break up those stalks before they were plowed under and we could not completely cover them, that is an additional operation.

Mr. CRAMTON. I am talking about a section of the country where it is customary to plow the stubble under.

The work of pulverizing that stubble to guard against these borers would be labor additional to the normal, usual farm operations, and that is where you come in and expect to take care of the expense?

Secretary JARDINE. That is estimated to be anywhere from 75 cents to a dollar an acre.

Mr. CRAMTON. That is, the special machinery required?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. You do not expect a farmer with 10 acres of corn to buy one of those machines, so you buy this equipment wholesale and move it from farm to farm?

Secretary JARDINE. We would take care of at least 20 per cent. Mr. CRAMTON. What about the corn stalks that are used for fodder, and you come around in the spring and find that there is a large quantity

Secretary JARDINE (interposing). Where you feed your cattle that kind of feed, you have to clean them up.

Mr. CRAMTON. In ordinary farm practice you would not need to worry about the stalks being scattered over the field.

Secretary JARDINE. No.

Mr. CRAMTON. But in your cleaning-up program, that is to be reached?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. Then, in the barnyard, where they have cornstalks scattered around, you do not have to worry about them in ordinary farming operation, but in this campaign, attention is to be paid to them.

Suppose a man has quite a supply of cornstalks remaining, and when you get around to him he might still be using them. What are you going to do about that?

Secretary JARDINE. Have them stacked.

Doctor LARRIMER. That is not much good for food after the 1st of May.

Mr. CRAMTON. Suppose he has a quantity left on the 1st of May, and it has no particular value for food but it is some bother to burn them. You are going to require that to be done, and you would not consider there was any value left to him in those cornstalks? Doctor LARRIMER. No, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. Would you assume he had no value left in those stalks?

Doctor LARRIMER. No value, except the urgency of having it done before the 1st of June.

Mr. CRAMTON. You, perhaps, feel justified in taking those stalks and burning them after the 1st of May, but the prohibition against using any part of them and paying the value or the cost of the corn would not interfere with your program?

Secretary JARDINE. No, sir.

Mr. CRAMTON. What about corn raised for silage, which perhaps did not fully mature. What becomes of the corn borer then?

Doctor LARRIMER. The corn borer is almost completely destroyed by the process of putting the corn in the silo.

Mr. CRAMTON. So corn put in that silo does not carry any borer the next year?

Doctor LARRIMER. None whatever.

Mr. CRAMTON. What about the cattle which eat the stalks which are infested with the borer? What is the chance of the borer surviving that operation and going out in manure?

Doctor LARRIMER. There is no chance whatever; it is complete destruction.

Mr. CRAMTON. So that, what you really expect to do is to get into the field as early as you can and have your organization ready so as to see that all stubble and stalks are destroyed as far as possible, either in the field where the corn was raised, or in the feeding field, or in the barnyards.

Doctor LARRIMER. Yes, sir. In some of this corn that is not actually eaten there is some danger there. Of course, if the stalks are mixed with the manure, there is danger there unless it is completely burned.

Mr. CRAMTON. There is a certain percentage that would be carried out in the ordinary cleaning up of the farm yard. There would be quite a percentage to be carried out?

Mr. LARRIMER. Yes, sir.

Secretary JARDINE. That is used for bedding also.

Mr. CRAMTON. How about the farmer claiming some property loss if you destroyed this yard yard-full of manure?

Doctor Woods. It is provided that we can not pay and we do not intend to pay for any property losses.

Mr. CRAMTON. You expect you are going to be able to go through with your campaign without that authority to take care of any losses of that kind?

Doctor Woods. Yes, sir.

Secretary JARDINE. That is supposed to be in the regulatory act, and penalties, also.

STATE COOPERATION

Mr. CRAMTON. What about any cooperation through appropriations, or contributions by States, county, or local authorities or individual organizations? Is the campaign to be financed entirely by them?

Secretary JARDINE. There will be about $1,250,000 available for these States that will have to do this clean-up program, and that money is for regulatory work and scientific work and further investigations, and none of it is to reimburse the farmers, as I understand it.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean to say those are the contributions you get from outsiders?

Secretary JARDINE. That is the extent of the contributions.

Mr. CRAMTON. They will have to be used in this clean-up campaign?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. You are getting pretty close to the 1st of March. You must know about what you are going to get through other sources as well as what you expect to get from Congress, because you will have to have that as quickly as what you get from Congress.

How much do you expect to get from other sources, and from what other sources?

Doctor Woods. We expect the States to aid us with their regulatory work, and to put their men in the field and cooperate with us. Our end of the work is the purchase of machinery and the operation of it, and the payment of indemnity to the farmers.

Mr. CRAMTON. I am talking about the other end. You are now expecting the States to put men in the field and to take care of the expenses of that for regulatory purposes. What do you mean by that? Do you mean there is to be a man in the county who will tell a man there that under the State law he has to permit the Federal people to come in and pulverize his corn stubble? Is that the purpose of it?

Mr. WOOD. What do you mean by "regulatory"?

Mr. WORTHLEY. They have power in the State and they have to operate under that power. Our men will be authorized under the State law to do this work. They have their own regulating officers. Mr. CRAMTON. Just what is the State of Michigan going to do, for instance, in the way of regulatory officers; how many of them will there be?

Mr. WORTHLEY. They will not contribute anything to speak of toward this clean-up campaign, except in an educational way. Their educational department will conduct an educational campaign, and we expect to help.

Mr. CRAMTON. So all the State of Michigan will contribute is the operation of their present organization of the State department of agriculture?

Secretary JARDINE. It is just as well to keep the States out of this clean-up, because the Government is paying the bill.

Mr. CRAMTON. You are going to have their moral support and the preaching of the State agricultural department organization. Is there to be any financial contribution, as authorized by this act by counties, or local authorities, or individuals, or organizations?

Secretary JARDINE. No; not that I know of.

Mr. CRAMTON. You do not expect them to make any such contributions?

Secretary JARDINE, I do not think so. There may be, but I do not know anything about it. I am just working with $10,000,000. Of course, there is educational work and regulatory work to be done, and that probably is going to mean a bigger force than they ordinarily carry. Someone is going to pay for that, and I suppose the State will pay for it.

Mr. CRAMTON. There is this proviso in the act authorizing the $10,000,000 appropriation:

Provided, That in the discretion of the Secretary of Agriculture no expenditures shall be made hereunder until the States wherein the European corn borer exists shall have provided necessary regulatory legislation, and until a sum or sums adequate to State cooperation shall have been appropriated, subscribed, or contributed by States, counties, or local authorities, or individuals, or organizations.

In your discretion, when a State assures you that they have enough money for the purpose of education; in other words, if the State assures you that the regular organization is going to give you their moral support, you will feel that that proviso has been met?

Secretary JARDINE. I want them to put their men in the field. Mr. CRAMTON. Their regular organization?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes; and they may have to put in additional

men.

Mr. CRAMTON. Suppose a State does not pass regulatory legislation?

Secretary JARDINE. We can not go in there.

Mr. CRAMTON. You will not go into that State unless you get regulatory legislation?

Secretary JARDINE. The act says we can not go in there.

Mr. CRAMTON. It puts it in your discretion.

Secretary JARDINE. Of course, our hands will be tied; they will resent it and we can not get anywhere.

Mr. CRAMTON. So, if a State does not pass regulatory legislation to meet your approval you will not go in there with any of this money?

Secretary JARDINE. I can not tell; the question is whether we can get results. No one can tell. It may be that things will be all right, and it may be that the cooperation will be such that I do not need the authority.

Mr. CRAMTON. If you are going to spend $10,000,000 between now and the 1st of May, you will have to know pretty soon whether you are going to get cooperation.

Mr. WORTHLEY. We will need to be authorized to begin expenditures from this fund not later than the 18th of this month if we are going to get our equipment in place and get the field force ready. Secretary JARDINE. I think we know where we are.

NECESSITY OF REGULATORY LAWS BY STATES

Mr. WOOD. You say unless a State passes these regulatory laws you can not go into that State. I appreciate that fact, because I do not think a State has the right to interfere with the police regulations of any other State, unless the other State invites them to do that.

Suppose one of the States refuses or neglects to pass any regulatory laws. Then how much good would your demonstration do an individual in the middle of the area?

Secretary JARDINE. I doubt if it would do any good at all. He will be "up a tree."

Mr. Wood. What assurance have you that the States are going to do these things?

Secretary JARDINE. I have no assurance, except that these fellows who constitute this committee believe it is going to be done. I warned them that it would have to be done.

Mr. WOOD. Are all the States that are involved in this business having their legislatures meet this winter and having that matter considered in the legislatures!

Secretary JARDINE. It was in Kansas when I was there. They are asking for $10,000 there.

Mr. CRAMTON. Let me ask you one other question. Under the statute you have the authority to say that the Federal Government will not go into the State of Michigan in this campaign unless the State of Michigan passes the necessary regulatory legislation. You are right on the eve of your campaign; to be effective, you will have to be on your toes on the 1st of March.

Secretary JARDINE. Absolutely.

Mr. CRAMTON. Not only as to the Federal contribution, but also as to the States?

Secretary JARDINE. Yes.

Mr. CRAMTON. This has been a matter of agitation for a long time in the States. The Legislature of Michigan is now in session and has been since the first Monday in January, and the State department of agriculture is right at the doorstep of the legislature.

If the State of Michigan has not yet passed the necessary regulatory legislation, would it not be helpful for the State of Michigan to understand, through a definite suggestion right now from you that unless the Legislature of Michigan passes that legislation by the time this money is available, you will have to cut Michigan out of your program?

Secretary JARDINE. We probably would. Of course, that would break down the whole program.

Mr. CRAMTON. Not necessarily. If the State of Michigan does not elect to come in

Secretary JARDINE (interposing). It leaves that infested area. Mr. CRAMTON. You should give them a little advance notice that if they do not come in in that way you can not go into the State. If they understand it, and then stay out, there is nothing to prevent you from going into Ohio, if Ohio does come across.

Secretary JARDINE. But we will have that sore spot.

Mr. CRAMTON. But the doctor has said here that they only fly 5 or

10 miles.

Secretary JARDINE. Unless we can take in the whole area, I think we are wasting our money.

Mr. CRAMTON. Then what I am suggesting is this, that you just serve notice through the answers that you give me in the hearing that unless these States pass the needed legislation, you can not use the money, and I have not any doubt but that you would get the legislation.