these duties", and within 10 days he came back into my office and he said, "How you have gotten by, I do not know. We need for the personnel as it is right now (taking into consideration the $5,000,000 for establishment), notwithstanding the readjustment that we are making, that makes for economy, $3,000,000 to do the job without any addition, without any extension to any of these things." Bear

in mind that your $5,000,000, and the $4,000,000 of the Senate, takes their own personnel along with them-that is for extensions and improvements, and we will have the personnel to do those things, but we need $3,000,000 just as we are today.

It is appalling the way the Bureau is undermanned. Take for instance the inspectors; in 1932 we had 123, and we now have, with 300 percent more work, 63, and that is true all through the organization. So we went to the Bureau of the Budget and they gave us $2,250,000. We explained the situation to the Senate, and they agreed to give us the amounts that we are requesting of you gentlemen today. Mr. Fagg, Mr. Collins, and Mr. Kerlin will go through all that with you in detail just as they have done it with the Bureau of the Budget and the Senate, and I am hopeful that you will agree with this.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Now, Colonel, if you do not mind, we have had submitted to us a statement, I assume from the Bureau, showing a break-down of the respective amounts passed by the House, and of the amendments by the Senate. I think that it would be well for the record to have you or Mr. Fagg follow these items as they appear on this statement.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Fagg and Mr. Collins will do that; yes. But just before you get around to that, I have one other thing, and then I will have to run along. I want to confine myself to generalities.

PURCHASE OF AIRPLANES

Last year, Mr. Chairman, you will recollect that I complained about our flying equipment, and we wanted to buy some planes. I came to see you, and we went over the matter, and you thought that it was advisable to purchase some planes. I am not sharing responsibility with you, but I was trying to keep faith with the committee here, and the Senate committee also.

So we bought nine Stinson planes, one for our W. P. A., which which they were to pay for, and they offered to pay for all of them. We have explained the matter in detail to the Comptroller, but he has refused to approve the vouchers for payment. The number is small compared to the planes that we are going to buy with this money that you have given us. We have those planes, just exactly what we want, except they are not metal.

We have not paid for them. I want to pay for those planes out of this money that you have allowed, and buy additional planes. To pay for these planes will require that you provide authority, in a way that Mr. Kerlin will explain. Mr. Kerlin and Mr. Collins are familiar with the technicalities that we have not been able to meet.

Mr. BACON. The Senate added language reading, "and aircraft for official use." That covers it, does it not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; but they will explain the technicalities, and they have something to say specifically about this contract.

Gentlemen, I am sure that they will be able to satisfy you on all of those details.

Mr. McMILLAN. May I ask how many of these planes you bought? Mr. JOHNSON. Nine.

Mr. MCMILLAN. What was the amount involved?

Mr. JOHNSON. About $80,000.

Mr. MCMILLAN. And the Comptroller General has turned you down?

Mr. JOHNSON. He won't let us pay for them.

Mr. MCMILLAN. You are using those planes?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes; and have been using them.

Mr. MCMILLAN. How long have you been using them?

Mr. JOHNSON. About 3 months.

Mr. COLLINS. The first delivery was made on November 25. We got three during the month of November, two during December, and four have been awaiting delivery or were ready for delivery since about January 4.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had the last four delivered short of some radios. which they will install when we get them.

Mr. TARVER. I regret that it is necessary for me to ask you to repeat, but for what purposes did you buy them?

Mr. JOHNSON. For our inspectors and other flying aviation personnel in the Bureau.

Mr. TARVER. Why did you feel justified in buying them?

Mr. JOHNSON. We were short that much, and needed the planes, and bought them just as we have been buying planes in the past. Mr. TARVER. And that was going beyond the limits of your appropriation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, no. I think it had to do probably with the way in which we purchased them, mostly, the manner in which we purchased them, some technicality that we cannot get by the Comptroller. Mr. TARVER. What is that technicality?

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Kerlin will explain that.

Mr. KERLIN. Do you want to take that up now?

Mr. MCMILLAN. We can reach that in regular order and will have that explained by Mr. Kerlin.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you.

GENERAL STATEMENT

Mr. MCMILLAN. Now, Mr. Fagg, if you will take up the statement that I referred to a moment ago, showing the comparison of the bill as passed by the Senate and as passed by the House, I think it will be well to follow that statement down, item by item.

Mr. FAGG. May I say by way of introduction that, in all of these cases on which supplemental estimates were presented to the Bureau of the Budget and which reached the House (because your hearing had been over before we came in), the amount asked for of the Bureau of the Budget was in the neighborhood of $3,500,000 instead of $3,000,000, and they gave us $2,247,000. That was largely due to the fact, as the colonel has said, that the extra amount as originally presented (speaking of this $5,000,000 for additional air-navigation aids) dealt only with one of four fundamental phases of the Bureau's work, and that is the provision for, and the maintenance of, airnavigation aids. In the other three parts of the Bureau's work, the development work, the information work, and in the regulatory phases, the Bureau's activities were actually about 4 years back in

these duties", and within 10 days he came back into my office and he said, "How you have gotten by, I do not know. We need for the personnel as it is right now (taking into consideration the $5,000,000 for establishment), notwithstanding the readjustment that we are making, that makes for economy, $3,000,000 to do the job without any addition, without any extension to any of these things." Bear in mind that your $5,000,000, and the $4,000,000 of the Senate, takes their own personnel along with them-that is for extensions and improvements, and we will have the personnel to do those things, but we need $3,000,000 just as we are today.

It is appalling the way the Bureau is undermanned. Take for instance the inspectors; in 1932 we had 123, and we now have, with 300 percent more work, 63, and that is true all through the organization. So we went to the Bureau of the Budget and they gave us $2,250,000. We explained the situation to the Senate, and they agreed to give us the amounts that we are requesting of you gentlemen today. Mr. Fagg, Mr. Collins, and Mr. Kerlin will go through all that with you in detail just as they have done it with the Bureau of the Budget and the Senate, and I am hopeful that you will agree with this.

Mr. MCMILLAN. Now, Colonel, if you do not mind, we have had submitted to us a statement, I assume from the Bureau, showing & break-down of the respective amounts passed by the House, and of the amendments by the Senate. I think that it would be well for the record to have you or Mr. Fagg follow these items as they appear on this statement.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Fagg and Mr. Collins will do that; yes. But just before you get around to that, I have one other thing, and then I will have to run along. I want to confine myself to generalities.

PURCHASE OF AIRPLANES

Last year, Mr. Chairman, you will recollect that I complained about our flying equipment, and we wanted to buy some planes. I came to see you, and we went over the matter, and you thought that it was advisable to purchase some planes. I am not sharing responsi bility with you, but I was trying to keep faith with the committee here, and the Senate committee also.

So we bought nine Stinson planes, one for our W. P. A., which which they were to pay for, and they offered to pay for all of them.

We have explained the matter in detail to the Comptroller, but he has refused to approve the vouchers for payment. The number is small compared to the planes that we are going to buy with this money that you have given us. We have those planes, just exactly what we want, except they are not metal.

Το

We have not paid for them. I want to pay for those planes out of this money that you have allowed, and buy additional planes. pay for these planes will require that you provide authority, in a way that Mr. Kerlin will explain. Mr. Kerlin and Mr. Collins are familiar with the technicalities that we have not been able to meet.

Mr. BACON. The Senate added language reading, "and aircraft for official use." That covers it, does it not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; but they will explain the technicalities, and they have something to say specifically about this contract...

Gentlemen, I am sure that they will be able to satisfy you on all of those details.

Mr. MCMILLAN. May I ask how many of these planes you bought? Mr. JOHNSON. Nine.

Mr. MCMILLAN. What was the amount involved?

Mr. JOHNSON. About $80,000.

Mr. MCMILLAN. And the Comptroller General has turned you down?

Mr. JOHNSON. He won't let us pay for them.

Mr. MCMILLAN. You are using those planes?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes; and have been using them.

Mr. MCMILLAN. How long have you been using them?

Mr. JOHNSON. About 3 months.

Mr. COLLINS. The first delivery was made on November 25. We got three during the month of November, two during December, and four have been awaiting delivery or were ready for delivery since about January 4.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had the last four delivered short of some radios which they will install when we get them.

Mr. TARVER. I regret that it is necessary for me to ask you to repeat, but for what purposes did you buy them?

Mr. JOHNSON. For our inspectors and other flying aviation personnel in the Bureau.

Mr. TARVER. Why did you feel justified in buying them?

Mr. JOHNSON. We were short that much, and needed the planes, and bought them just as we have been buying planes in the past. Mr. TARVER. And that was going beyond the limits of your appropriation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, no. I think it had to do probably with the way in which we purchased them, mostly, the manner in which we purchased them, some technicality that we cannot get by the Comptroller. Mr. TARVER. What is that technicality?

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Kerlin will explain that.

Mr. KERLIN. Do you want to take that up now?

Mr. MCMILLAN. We can reach that in regular order and will have that explained by Mr. Kerlin.

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you.

GENERAL STATEMENT

Mr. MCMILLAN. Now, Mr. Fagg, if you will take up the statement that I referred to a moment ago, showing the comparison of the bill as passed by the Senate and as passed by the House, I think it will be well to follow that statement down, item by item.

Mr. FAGG. May I say by way of introduction that, in all of these cases on which supplemental estimates were presented to the Bureau of the Budget and which reached the House (because your hearing had been over before we came in), the amount asked for of the Bureau of the Budget was in the neighborhood of $3,500,000 instead of $3,000,000, and they gave us $2,247,000. That was largely due to the fact, as the colonel has said, that the extra amount as originally presented (speaking of this $5,000,000 for additional air-navigation aids) dealt only with one of four fundamental phases of the Bureau's work, and that is the provision for, and the maintenance of, airnavigation aids. In the other three parts of the Bureau's work, the development work, the information work, and in the regulatory phases, the Bureau's activities were actually about 4 years back in

We

their appropriations in relation to the progress of the industry. felt that to increase the aids, making possible increased schedules, with a rapidly declining administrative force to handle the work, we would not attain the objective you gentlemen had in mind by way of increasing safety, because in effect we were supplying more concrete roads for people to use without any additional personnel to license them, their equipment, or personnel. We, therefore, were forced to go back and request this extra $3,500,000.

Unfortunately for our presentation, the first item in the Budget is one for departmental salaries. I say "unfortunately" because it is hard to justify the Washington salaries at once until you have seen some of the other items; but I will try to do that.

The original amount of $639,600 the House cut, I believe, to $543,000, and it was in that respect that we asked the Bureau of the Budget for some $184,000 in addition. The Budget allowed $85,000 of the $184,000 that we asked for, making the total that you see in the second column amounting to $628,000. We further requested that at least $10,000 of that amount should be made immediately available. In each one of these items we have requested that a specific amount be made available, largely for two purposes, first to provide leave time for our personnel, and get them in condition for the strenuous work that is ahead this year, and, second, to provide increased personnel. We have people, and a rather substantial number, who have not had leave for a period of 9 years. When you consider that the airline pilots whom we regulate have twice as much time off as the amount of time that they fly, and that our own group who are regulating them are active, with hardly any time off at all, and are spending anywhere from 11 to 15 hours a day, with Sundays more under pressure than time off, we certainly are not promoting safety.

Mr. TARVER. Before you proceed further, did you prepare this statement which has been handed to us, showing the original Budget estimate and the appropriation bill as passed by the Senate, with the increases indicated?

Mr. FAGG. Mr. Collins did.

Mr. TARVER. Why did you not include the figures as passed by the House?

Mr. FAGG. Those are on another sheet.

Mr. TARVER. It ought to be in this table also, alongside of these figures. Of course, it is delightful, but it tends to create the impression that only the amount of $73,000 is involved, unless you go to the trouble of picking up the House figures in another statement.

Mr. FAGG. That is entirely right. That is why I introduced the figure of $543,000, but that does not show on this chart. It should,

sir.

The $628,000 item, as it went through the Senate, calls for an increase of some $85,000 as asked for, largely because we want to transfer some field positions in the Washington office, positions that have actually been held by people in the Washington office for a number of years, from field to the District of Columbia rolls, and to provide for some extra supervisory personnel in this office to take care of the added burden that is certain to come in connection with the building program. Do you want any more amplification here?

Mr. MCMILLAN. No, I think that that is sufficient.