amendment; but I shall try to give a brief what they have got in exchange for what and hurried sketch of the reasons which they have given up, they find that they have led me to propose the amendment. have received very little. As far as I can The Lower Provinces before Confedera- remember just now, I cannot call to mind tion had the right of managing their own any public work-that is of any conseaffairs in every way; and it is not necessary quence-which has been undertaken since for me to enlarge on the importance of Confederation in the Lower Provinces, that right. They gave up that right at the except the enlargement of the St. Peter's date of the Union; and the consequence Canal. Hon. gentlemen from the Upper has been that matters which are almost Provinces have told us “Oh you have got purely local in character and which in old the Intercolonial Railway." I venture to times were managed without difficulty or say that the Intercolonial Railway has not delay and at trifling expense at the several been constructed and is not operated in provincial capitals, now involve a great the interests of the Lower Provinces, deal of expense, delay and difficulty in most certainly not in the interests of their settlement at Ottawa. Naturally the the cities of that part of Canada. legislation here is in the interests of the ma- Intercolonial Railway, so far as it has been jority, and very often against the interests of a benefit, has benefitted chiefly the Upper the minority in the Lower Provinces. I need Provinces. Any hon. gentleman who will only refer to one Bill as an example-the take the pains to investigate the character Act which was passed here last Session of the business on the Intercolonial Railwith respect to the coasting trade-an way will find that that line is occupied Act which in its operation has been found chiefly in carrying freight down from the very annoying to the small ship masters Upper Provinces to the sea coast and not and ship owners of the Maritime Provinces. in bringing up freight to the Upper Province.

HON. MR. HOWLAN-What Act is that?

HON. MR. POWER-The Act respecting masters and mates of coasting vessels.

The

HON. MR. MACDONALD-Perhaps there is nothing to carry.

HON. MR. POWER-I believe the hon. gentleman has never been in the HON. MR. HOWLAN-That is altered Maritime Provinces, and I can therefore by legislation this session.

millers of the Upper Provinces, opportunities for forwarding their goods to the Lower Provinces. It has not brought any large amount of freight back. Some hon. gentleman has just mentioned coal. Coal is the only article which has passed in any considerable quantity over the Intercolonial Railway this way; and there has been some sugar of late years.

excuse the remark, because it is probably made through ignorance. We do not HON. MR. POWER-I have not seen send our goods to the West. The Interthe Bill yet; but if such a measure has been colonial Railway has simply afforded the introduced, it shows that Parliament legis- merchants of Montreal, Toronto, Hamillated last year in ignorance of the require-ton and other western cities, and the ments of the Lower Provinces and is now undoing what should never have been done at all. The loss of the right to govern themselves is a very serious one indeed. Then, the taxation of the Lower Provinces has been more than doubled. Before Confederation, in the Province of Nova Scotia the tariff was ten per cent; in New Brunswick it was 12 1-2, and on dutiable articles it is at least double the higher figure now. It is certainly double the lower figure taking the tariff as a whole; and this although the promise was made at the time of the Union, by the gentlemen who were engineering that scheme through the Lower Provinces, that the tariff would never exceed 15 per cent. Now, when the people in the Lower Provinces come to ask themselves

HON. MR. READ-What about fish?

HON. MR. POWER-Very little fish has come this way. The point I make is that up to the present day the principal advantages arising from the construction of the Intercolonial Railway have been reaped by the Upper Provinces and not

by the Lower Provinces. The business colonial railway to the east, and a Pacific

railway to the west, for the purpose of having
We want a road on British soil; we want a
a road through the United States of America.
road of our own; for the maintenance of
British institutions upon this continent. We
want a road that will be a benefit to Canada
and the Canadians; but we do not want a
United States."
road that will lead our emigrants through the

HON. MR. PLUMB-Hear! hear!!

men of the Maritime Provinces had begun to realize that that was the real state of things when the recent proposition was made to construct the Canadian Pacific Railway. Before they had fully realized the state of things as to the Intercolonial Railway, the Canadian Pacific Railway was talked about, and the men who advocated the construction of that road gave the people of the Lower Provinces to understand that, if they had not reaped HON. MR. POWER-Naturally then, very much benefit from the Intercolonial the hon. gentleman did not want a road Railway, when the Canadian Pacific which terminated at Portland or Boston. Railway was constructed they would On the 14th January, 1881, the hon. derive the benefits which they had a right Minister of Railways expressed almost to expect from Confederation; that then similar sentiments. the ports of the Lower Provinces would

become the shipping ports of the Do- HON MR. SKEAD-May I ask what minion, and that the mines and manu- the hon. gentleman is quoting from? facturers in the east would do work for

the whole Dominion and would ship their HON. MR. POWER-I am quoting goods over that road to British Columbia from historical documents and to other equally remote and interest-years old.

ing regions. Some people are always

prone to hope for the best; and the public

some three

HON. MR. SKEAD-From the Debates

were led to believe that there was a good of the Senate ?

deal in these promises. They were told

HON. MR. SKEAD-I may remind the Minister of Justice that another member was stopped here who was reading from a report of a speech delivered in the House of Commons.

particularly that after the construction of HON. MR. POWER-No, of the House the Canadian Pacific Railway-and this of Commons. was told at a very recent date all the ocean-borne freight to be carried by the railway over the continent was to be shipped at some port or ports in the Lower Province. Occasionally gentlemen were definite; sometimes they said St. John, and sometimes Halifax; but at any rate all the freight to be carried over the HON. MR. POWER-The rule has Canadian Pacific Railway-over the great been that we have not been allowed to national highway of which we have heard quote speeches of the current Session. so much was to be shipped at a port in That speech was not made during the the Lower Provinces, and freight coming present Parliament, so it is quite old across the ocean to the railway was to be enough to be quoted. At any rate, I know landed at Lower Province ports. Now, several hon. gentlemen who have been in in order to show that I am not misrepre- the habit of quoting speeches made in the senting what took place, I shall give the other House in previous Sessions, so I do House the language used by certain not see why the rule should be enforced prominent gentlemen when the original against me. I do not intend to quote contract was passing through Parliament. many of those speeches, because I know On the 17th December, 1880, the Minis- that they do not sound pleasantly to some ter of Public Works, Sir Hector Langevin, hon. gentlemen. Now I shall quote from speaking in the House of Commons on a speech delivered by the Premier on the this question, said :17th January, 1881, which will be found. Debates of that year. Speaking of the at page 490 of the House of Commons leader of the Opposition that hon. gentle

"The hon. gentleman will remember that the policy of this Parliament has not been to have a railway going through a foreign country, nor to expend millions upon an inter-man said :—

Now, hon. gentlemen, it is not out of order, I presume to cite what has been said in our own Chamber, and I shall just read a few words. The quotation would be too long, but I refer hon. gentlemen to Then the same hon. gentleman, at page is now Minister of Marine and Fisheries, page 260 where the hon. gentleman who 491, said:

HON. MR. POWER-We have to deal Not a word said about building up with existing facts. The hon. gentleman Portland or Boston.

HON. MR. READ-He said, "As much They decided that they would have as possible."

"If we were to allow a branch road to be stronger. I do not think, hon. gentlemen, built from the Pacific Railway to the Ameri- that it is very much to be wondered at, can boundary, and from that point it were I have tried to point out that up to the continued down to some of their magnificent harbors, which is but a short distance-we present time the Lower Provinces have might, after all our trouble and expense, find gained no commercial advantages by that we had constructed a road to build up a Confederation-in fact, very little advan great city in the United States. And we should find ourselves in a rather ridiculous tage of any kind. position; therefore, this monopoly of the Pacific Company is what we should desire; a monopoly which is only one against the United States and not against Canada will be

for our own benefit."

Now I presume the hon. gentleman from Montarville will not be disposed to vote against the amendment which I propose, because it is simply to prevent the building up on Canadian money, of a great port in the United States. The hon. gentleman from St. John, who unfortunately has not been able to be present this session, was very eloquent on the same subject at page 338. I have only quoted from some of the principal speak

ers.

In the House of Commons, member after member who spoke on the Ministerial side re-echoed the sentiments of their leaders; and there was something in almost every speech made in this House by hon. gentlemen who supported the measure, of the character indicated by the quotations I have made. We had amongst others the hon. gentleman who is now Minister of Interior, and who was then in the Chair. When the Bill was in the Committee he expressed sentiments in the same direction, as he did again the other evening.

They have been obliged to pay their share of the immense sums which the Intercolonial Railway and the canals and this Canadian Pacific Railway have cost the Dominion, and they will be obliged to pay their share of what this road will hereafter cost; and so far they have not reaped one dollar's worth of good from all that expenditure Certain contractors may have reaped individual benefits; but the people of the Lower Provinces as such, have reaped no benefit, and can derive none from this immense expenditure, unless the Atlantic winter terminus of the road is located in the Maritime Provinces. I do not think myself that that will at all compensate them for what they have expended; but still that is all that they can get in return for their outlay; and I think that, whatever may have been done in the other House, in the Senate, where we are sup posed to represent the Provinces more particularly than they do in the other Chamber, the interests of the Lower Prov inces in this matter should be fairly considered. It seems an exceedingly unfair thing to take the taxes which have been wrung from the people of the Lower Provinces in common with the people of the other portions of the Dominion, and It can be readily understood what the to hand them over to a company which feelings of the people of the Lower Prov-spends them afterwards in building up the inces were when during last autumn they found that the President of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company was engaged in negotiations with the civic authorities at Portland, with a view to making that port I have already said that I do not think the Atlantic winter terminus of the great the amendment which I have proposed Canadian Pacific Railway. Meetings unreasonable. We cannot prevent the were held in different parts of the Company from owning what they already Lower Provinces and resolutions passed possess. They already own or have a etting forth in pretty vigorous terms what controlling interest in the South Eastern the sentiments of the people were on the Railway, and they can get to Portland subject. Since this discussion has begun without any difficulty. In no case would in Parliament here, and since it has been they have any difficulty in making running made apparent that the Government did arrangements with American roads. It is not propose to oblige the Canadian Paci- absurd for hon. gentlemen to contend that fic Railway Company to locate their the American roads might put the screws winter terminus in British territory, the on and charge a great deal for freight from feeling in the Lower Provinces has grown the Canadian Pacific Railway, because

port of Boston or that of Portland; and I hope that this House will express a different opinion on that subject from that which the other Chamber did.

the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, against nature. Perhaps I am just now having a line extending as far East as taking a somewhat extreme view. But, Montreal, are not limited to one outlet to turning to the case before us, this Canathe Atlantic. Even apart from our own dian Pacific road has not been built upon ports, there are at least three or four rail- commercial principles. Gentlemen say ways running from Montreal to Portland, that we should apply commercial principles Boston and New York, and if the Com- in dealing with this Company, but we pany controlling one of those roads under have not done so yet. If a Company took to impose unreasonably high rates were building this road by means of their on the freight of the Canadian Pacific own capital, or building it with a moderate Railway, another would not. In fact it is subsidy, I should say; "Certainly, apply perfectly clear as a matter of business that commercial principles;" but we have there would be a lively competition given them an immense subsidy; they amongst those American roads for the are coming to us for a very large loan. freight coming over the Canadian Pa- We have obliged them to carry the road cific Railway. It has been said that north of Lake Superior, where there is no the ports in the Lower Provinces are fur- traffic to be got. We oblige them to build ther from the existing terminus of the through the mountains in British Columbia Canadian Pacific Railway, Montreal, than where the road would never have been either Portland or Boston. That is true, built on commercial principles. hon. gentlemen; they are somewhat further, but the difference is not perhaps as great as hon. gentlemen might imagine. When freight has travelled 2,000 miles across the continent, the fact that it has to go 200 miles further, to reach St. John, or 300 miles further to reach Halifax, does not make nearly as great a difference as if it started from Montreal.

HON. MR. MACDONALD—If you could help it.

HON. MR. POWER-The hon. gentleman says if we could help it. The Government of which I was a follower had undertaken to build the road through British Columbia, and, I presume, would have done it. I think myself it is to be regret

HON. MR. PLUMB-It adds one-tenth ted that it was not continued as a to the distance.

Government work, instead of building it as it is being constructed. I contend that HON. MR. POWER-It may add one the road is not in any way being built on tenth; but that is not so very important commercial principles. As a commercial under all the circumstances. As a rule, undertaking or speculation it could never the port charges are less at the Canadian have been constructed; it never has been ports, and the sea 'voyage is considerably regarded as such, but has been looked. shorter than from the American ports. But upon as a great national undertaking. It this argument that nature is against us was to be a Canadian road from sea to sea. ought to be regarded, in Canada at any It was to be for ourselves and not to carry rate, as being one that is not to be com- business elsewhere.

batted. All the money which has been So the view that I take of it is this: If expended by Canada-all or nearly all this road had been built on commercial for which our debt has been incurred-principles from the beginning, one would has been spent in fighting against nature. say, "Continue your commercial princiNature did not make Montreal the harbor ples to the end;" but, having constructed of the Province of Quebec. Nature made the road from the Pacific down to MonQuebec the harbor; but money has been treal on principles the reverse of commerspent and a debt incurred, part of which cial, I think it is too late to begin to apply has been assumed by the Government of commercial principles on the road between Canada, to make Montreal what nature Montreal and the Lower Provinces. Now, made Quebec. We have spent, I think, the hon. gentleman from Victoria has had some $30,000,000 on our canals. That a good deal to say with respect to the money has been expended in fighting remarks that I have been making to-day, against nature, and the Canadian Pacific but I put this question to the hon. genRailway itself, in great part, is a fight tleman: Supposing that the Canadian