as prevailed during the administration of the State militia. During the time of the State militia you were privileged to go to Ohio or West Virginia, or to any other State, to employ miners to come into Colorado and be protected by the State militia in their employment.

Mr. WELBORN. We were privileged to go and employ those men. The State militia, as I understand it, were instructed to protect them as well as to observe the instructions under which they went into the field. And I ought to say that they were also instructed to check up the men we brought in from other States, to find out-that is, to determine absolutely that those men had been informed that there was a strike on in Colorado, and had been fully acquainted with the conditions under which they were brought here.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes. Now, that was the condition prevailing when the State militia was in the field?

Mr. WELBORN. Yes; during the month of December.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes; but now can you go into Ohio and Pennsylvania, or have the employment agencies in those States employ men for you, and come here under the now administration prevailing?

Mr. WELBORN. Well, I want to say absolutely that we are not going in there, because we have all the men we want. Yet a great many men are coming to Colorado from other States

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes; well, now, I don't want to haggle over it, but I want to get straightened out on that. Under the orders of the President of the United States

Mr. WELBORN. As I remember it, sir, the orders, or rather the understanding which we have from the Army officers is to the effect that men shall not be brought in as strike breakers. That anyone who may seek employment for the purpose of making his home or remaining here a while may be employed without interference.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. But you can not got out to the adjoining States and seek men to come in here and work for you through this strike?

Mr. WELBORN. Well, I should not say that, because that particular proposition, or one in that form, has not been presented to the Federal soldiers, for the reason, primarily, that we don't need the men.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. That may be true; but if you needed the men?

Mr. WELBORN. I am not sure but that if we needed the men we could obtain them under those conditions.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. That you would be privileged to go to any State outside of Colorado and employ men, setting forth to them that there was a strike on, and that the soldiers were in there guarding the strikers, and so on? That you would have the right to employ men and bring them into Colorado and work in the mines under the protection of United States soldiers?

Mr. WELBORN. If we employed them, as we did in the other case, for permanent residents here.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And you maintain that there is absolutely no difference between the privilege of employment under the régime of the State militia, and that which now prevails among the United States soldiers? Mr. WELBORN. Practically not; I am sure I am right on that.

Chairman WALSH. Commissioner Garretson wants to ask you one question. Mr. WELBORN. Very good. I will answer that.

Commissioner GARRETSON. One phase of your testimony before that interested me, and I am curious to know how you reconcile it with a certain existing condition; that is, the fact that so much capital has been made out of the man Hayes and others of the mine officers, as being interlopers and intermeddlers. That has been at various stages of the game, and in the testimony. Now, if those men are the representatives of the mine workers, and are interlopers because they do not hold residence in the State of Colorado, what is your publicity agent who resides in Philadelphia, or your other adherent whose document you used in complimentary copies, who lives in East Aurora, N. Y.?

Mr. WELBORN. Our publicity agent, so called, is acting in very much the capacity as that of a stenographer. As I stated yesterday, I am as much responsible for the matter which he has prepared and had published as I am for the letter dictated to my stenographer and presented to me in daily course of business.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Let me put it in another form, then, where there is no stenographer about it. Now, what relation does John D Rockefeller, jr., a citizen of New York, bear to it as an interloper, or the board of directors

which dominates the property, located in New York.

Mr. WELBORN. They have their money, those gentlemen have their money invested in the industry.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Haven't the United Mine Workers of America got their membership located in the industry?

Mr. WELBORN. Not the membership in Colorado.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Oh! They had.

Mr. WELBORN. A very small minority.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Has a minority a right of representation?
Mr. WELBORN. Oh, yes, indeed.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Yes. Well, then, what is the difference between Hayes I am taking him as the highest officer——

Mr. WELBORN (interrupting). Let me go a little further on that question of the minority. They have the right to organize; they have the right to leave our employ; they have not the right to force the majority to leave our employ against their will.

Commissioner GARRETSON. That does not touch the officers question at all. Have they the right to demand of their officers-not of you, but of their officersthat they shall come here and represent them, just as the stockholders of the C. F. & I. or the Victor-American have the right to demand that you and Mr. Osgood represent them?

Mr. WELBORN. If the officers will come here to represent the minority of workmen belonging to the union in a lawful way, no one will question their right. Commissioner GARRETSON. Who really determines whether the legally elected representative of a coterie of men, by whatever name they may be called, is representing them? Is it the stockholders usually that will say that word, or others?

Mr. WELBORN. I don't think I understand the question, quite.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Won't the stockholders in the C. F. & I. say whether you are properly representing them according to their desire?

Mr. WELBORN. I am sure they will; yes.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Won't the individual members of the miners' organization, then, be most competent to say whether Mr. Hayes is representing them in accordance with their desire?

Mr. WELBORN. I don't question the right of Mr. Hayes to represent the men belonging to the union. I don't question the right of the small number who belong to the union, or a large number, if it happened to be a large number, to select Mr. Hayes as their representative. I question the right of Mr. Hayes and his small minority to attempt to force us to recognize their organization as such, and to force the large majority of our men to join it.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Well, then, if he comes here in response to the demand of one of the stockholders, where does the “interloper" come in? Mr. WELBORN. Well, he is not an interloper if he behaves himself. Commissioner GARRETSON. Oh! That is all.

Chairman WALSH. That is all.

Mr. WELBORN. That suggests one statement that I would like to put in there. The statement was made this morning in connection with the interloper ideathat Mr. Bowers was not a resident of Denver, but a resident of Binghamton, N. Y. The facts are that he has resided in Denver, and the reports show him to have been a resident of Denver since 1907. Mr. Bowers is chairman of our board of directors.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Was that made this morning?

Mr. WELBORN. Mr. Brewster made that statement.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Well, that is one thing that I overlooked.

Mr. WELBORN. That is not surprising.

Commissioner GARRETSON. I am obliged for the information.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Weitzel is the next witness. You will please take the stand, Mr. Weitzel.

Prof. BREWSTER. Mr. Chairman, may I make a statement?

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Weitzel is our next witness. We can hear you later.
Prof. BREWSTER. I will not be in again.

Chairman WALSH. You are going away?
Prof. BREWSTER. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. Just wait a moment, Mr. Weitzel. Just take the stand, Mr. Brewster.

TESTIMONY OF PROF. JAMES H. BREWSTER-Recalled.

Prof. BREWSTER. Mr. Chairman, my name is James H. Brewster. Mr. Chairman, in reference to what I said about Mr. Bowers, Mr. Bowers stated his own residence at the beginning of his testimony as "Binghamton, N. Y."; you will find it if you look in the beginning of the testimony. I have his own word for it under oath. I may be able to prove what I said.

There is one other thing that I wish to say. If you will read Capt. Nickerson's testimony, you will see how the antideception act of Colorado is observed at the orders of the governor. Capt. Nickerson was sent to La Junta, and there were 50 strike breakers there. They were nearly all asleep, and he took the word of four employees of the coal operators that they had been informed of the strike. That is the only investigation that was testified to by the militia, and that was stated to be the way all the investigations were made. I call your attention specially, therefore, to the testimony of Capt. Nickerson on the method of the militia examining whether strike breakers brought in were aware of the strike.

Chairman WALSH. Thank you, Professor, for your testimony.

Mr. Weitzel will take the stand.

TESTIMONY OF MR. E. H. WEITZEL,

Chairman WALSH. Now, if possible, Mr. Weitzel, those matters that need' no explanation, that have been testified to by Mr. Welborn, we would like to omit. We understand from you

Mr. WEITZEL. Yes; don't have any hesitancy in raising your hand, and I will stop.

Chairman WALSH. We don't want to limit anyone, but at the same time, there is no use of cumulative testimony where it don't add anything. What is your name?

Mr. WEITZEL. E. H. Weitzel.

Chairman WALSH. Where do you live?

Mr. WEITZEL. Pueblo.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you lived in Pueblo?

Mr. WEITZEL. Since about June, 1908.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you lived in the State of Colorado?

Mr. WEITZEL. Since April, 1906.

Chairman WALSH. Where did you live before you came here?

Mr. WEITZEL. Immediately before I lived in New Mexico; Dawson. Chairman WALSH, Beginning with what you might call the start of your business life as a young man, please sketch briefly down to the present time what positions you have occupied.

Mr. WEITZEL. I began work as chainman in the office of Ediburn & Cooper, engineers, in Pittsburgh, Pa., in February, 1888. I worked for them seven years. The first year or two I naturally seemed to take to the mining work, and they did a lot of it-they were mining enginers for a lot of companies around Pittsburgh, and I drifted into that branch of the work, and for several years did practically nothing else. In 1895 I went to work for the New York & Cleveland Gas Coal Co. That was a subsidiary of the Carnegie Steel Co., located near Pittsburgh, and I was there until 1901.

Chairman WALSH. In what positions?

Mr. WEITZEL. As engineer. Then I went to Bellaire, Ohio, for the Empire Coal Mining Co., in 1901, and was engineer, I think, about a year, and then was appointed general superintendent. I came to New Mexico in 1903, due to my wife's health. Her health had failed, and for a short time I worked as a miner in the mines in Dawson, N. Mex., and from miner to clerk, and engineer, and superintendent. I was at Dawson about three years, and came to Trinidad and opened an office there at general engineering work, and was city engineer there, I think, the next spring. There I got acquainted with the C. F. & I. people. I began as engineer of the fuel department August 1, 1907, held that position until March 15, 1908, and then was appointed manager.

Chairman WALSH. And what has your experience been with the United Mine Workers in other fields in which you have worked, as concisely as you can state it?

Mr. WEITZEL. When I was general superintendent for the Empire Coal Co., at Bellaire, Ohio, I had experience with the United Mine Workers.

Chairman WALSH. Any other place?

Mr. WEITZEL. No, sir; that was all.

Chairman WALSH. How long were you there?

Mr. WEITZEL. I was there in that position, I believe, about 18 months. I am not just certain now what time I was promoted there.

Chairman WALSH. Please state the advantages and disadvantages, if any, that you observed in that field in the dealings with the operators with the United Mine Workers.

Mr. WEITZEL. The disadvantages that I found were a lack of enforcing discipline. It is impossible, or was impossible-I got along, I want to say, with the miners. I got along with the officials. They were very fair-minded men when you could get them. But sometimes when you had trouble on your hands they had their troubles, and it would be five or six days before they could get around to your trouble. I had a number of cases there of difficulty, but the president of the district always stood by me when he got to the job.

I found that while working under nonunion, as we had there immediately before we signed up, in case an accident of any kind occurred there it was very easy to make investigation. After the union came in you couldn't learn anything. You could have a man hurt, or a wreck, or a mule killed or injured and you might just as well sit in the office as to try to find out anything. It was there I first learned that the oath of the United Mine Workers bound a man not to disclose or give any information to the employer-to a boss. And I have found since in some of the constitutions and by-laws they fine a man $10 for giving information to anyone concerning a fellow member.

• Chairman WALSH. Any information of any character, or just in cases of injury?

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, I believe I had better quote or read that.
Chairman WALSH. Yes; if you have it handy, I wish you would.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What are you about to read? Is that taken from the by-laws?

Mr. WEITZEL. Yes. It was put in evidence. I had the book and it was put in evidence before the congressional committee. What district is that? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. This is district 15.

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, this is district No. 14.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Does each district have separate and distinct bylaws-constitution and by-laws-or are they uniform?

Mr. WEITZEL. I think they are different-their by-laws are different. I am not certain but what the constitution-I think the constitution probably is the same within certain bounds. But each district has at least their own by-laws.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What section is that?

Mr. WEITZEL. Section 8, article 10, revised constitution, adopted by the Fourteenth Annual Convention, district No. 14, U. M. W. of A., held at Pittsburg, Kans., March, 1912. Approved April, 1912:

"Any member or members found guilty of giving damaging evidence, either verbal or written, to the company's representatives in case of accidents without the consent of the State mine inspector, or his deputies or legally constituted authority, shall be expelled from the union and shall not become a member again for less than $100, and the local expelling him shall notify the district secretary and he shall notify all locals in the district."

Section 13, article 15: "Any member of the U. M. W. of A. found guilty of giving evidence against members of our organization without being called upon by the pit committee or district board shall, for the first offense, be fined $10 and for the second offense shall be expelled from the organization."

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Can you submit that? [Witness hands pamphlet to Commissioner Weinstock.]

Chairman WALSH. Any other disadvantage that you found?

Mr. WEITZEL. I found that there were disadvantages to the men in some cases that came to my attention.

Chairman WALSH. What is that, Mr. Weitzel?

Mr. WEITZEL. Disadvantages to the men themselves.

Chairman WALSH. But first to the company. Any other disadvantages except lack of discipline?

Mr. WEITZEL. That was the principal one.

Chairman WALSH. Now, you say there were disadvantages to the men?

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, I don't know as I remember but one case there. I remember of a boy I had hooking cars at the bottom of the slope-coupling cars. He became 18 years of age and the pit committee called on me on his birthday and said he must receive a man's wages from that time. I said it was a boy's job and I would put another boy on, and it was their privilege to find him something else to do, and they took him away and tried to make a miner out of him. And first one man took him and then another, and no one was satisfied, and the boy was finally worked out of a job and thrown on the streets, and he was the only support of his mother and it caused a great hardship on the family.

Chairman WALSH. Any other disadvantages either to employers or employees?

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, there is a very good example to-day in eastern Ohio. As you probably know, the eastern part of the State is out on a strike and has been for eight months, which strike was brought about by the so-called minerun law, passed through the Ohio Legislature through the efforts of Billy Green, national secretary. This law provides that all coal shall be paid for on mine-run basis, while eastern Ohio competes in lake trade with western Pennsylvania and West Virginia, who work on the lump-coal basis under union contract. It is putting the Ohio operator at a disadvantage-well, it is putting a straw on his back that he can't bear. They can not possibly operate at a profit, as I know from my experience there. This has thrown out, as first stated, about 40,000 men. I understand by newspaper advices that there are still 13,000 families that have been without work. It was brought about by Green's work in the legislature, and he has been greatly praised by the United Mine Workers for having that law passed, although it has worked very great injury to his own people.

Chairman WALSH. What advantages, if any, did you find from the operators' standpoint in working under the union agreement?

Mr. WEITZEL. I couldn't say that I found any.

Chairman WALSH. Are the mines of the Colorado district more dangerous, particularly in regard to falling roofs, than other districts in the United States? Mr. WEITZEL. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. What is the reason of that?

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, as you know, all coal seams are formed level. They lie level as formed in the plastic state; and all our coal seams-practically all of them-I don't know of any place except right north of Denver here where they have not been disturbed by the upheaval of the Rocky Mountains, and the overlying strata have been badly broken. We have a great many what we call hidden slips, where there are fractures of the overlying strata that are not visible until the coal is mined; and it is from these that these breaks occur that often kill the miner. In the Eastern States, where the coal seams have not been subject to these upheavals, they do not have those difficulties. But our greatest difference, to my mind, is the danger from dust in southern Colorado. Mr. Dalrymple went into that very briefly. Our coal in southern Colorado averages a little less than 1 per cent in moisture; that is, in Las Animas. As you come north in Huerfano County it gets up to 4 per cent; Fremont County, 6 and 8; and in the northern field about 16. Now, the coal in southern Colorado is very friable and breaks up into very fine dust. It is so light that it floats in the air. Our percentage of humidity-relative humidity-in the atmosphere is very low. Sometimes for months in the winter it will average about 15 per cent. As that dry air is taken into the mine as a means of ventilation it picks up the moisture; every available atom of moisture is picked up and carried out through the current of air, and some of our dust down there is so explosive that men have been burned in loading a car. That cloud of dust would be lit from their naked lamp. We have to resort to measures for safety in southern Colorado that are almost unheard of in the Eastern States on account of some of the difficulties.

Chairman WALSH. How does the cost of living for miners compare with the cost of living in other coal fields that you know of?

Mr. WEITZEL. Well, I should say it was higher in this country.
Chairman WALSH. Could you approximate the percentage of it?

Mr. WEITZEL. No; I could not, Mr. Walsh.

Chairman WALSH. What is approximately the average number of days per year for which a miner is paid in your mine?

Mr. WEITZEL. We have some mines that do not lose a day-the Fourth of July and Christmas, they are the two holidays-the mines that supply the