called he was accused of being in sympathy with the strikers. He was ordered to leave the town, and so far as I know he has not been able to get back yet. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do the companies operate other businesses than these stores? For instance, are there saloons in these towns?

Mr. MCLENNAN. Yes.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Who operates the saloons?

Mr. MCLENNAN. My understanding is that the saloons are rented to outside individuals.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. By whom?

Mr. MCLENNAN. The coal companies.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Are the licenses taken out by the coal companies to operate these saloons?

Mr. MCLENNAN. No; the licenses are taken out in the name of the saloon keeper, as a rule, but my understanding is that they must be acceptable to the coal companies; that is, the operator decides who is going to run that saloon, and the operator can get a license for anyone, no matter who it is, so long as he is acceptable to the operators.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. From whom can we get the information as to just how that is carried on? Who would be the proper person to know about that saloon matter?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I do not know. You could not get any information that would be derogatory to the coal operators from the average peace officers in Las Animas or Huerfano Counties.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. You could not get any information from anybody in these counties that would be derogatory to the coal companies?

Mr. MCLENNAN. From the average peace officers; you could from independent citizens not in sympathy with the actions of the coal companies,

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Well, from the judges, or courts, or whoever grants licenses, for instance? Who grants the licenses?

Mr. MCLENNAN. The county commissioners.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Well, the county commissioners, would not they give us reliable information as to how these licenses are granted?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I don't believe they would, because the county commissioners have been for years, practically, you might say, employees of the coal companies.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Are they elected by the citizens of the community? Mr. MCLENNAN. They are supposed to be.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. There is an election held, at least?

Mr. MCLENNAN. Yes; there is an election held.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And all these peace officers and all these officers holding positions of authority otherwise are employed by the coal companies? Mr. MCLENNAN. Practically all.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you know anything as to the prices that are charged in these stores, as compared with Denver or other cities in this vicinity of the State?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I don't know at the present time what the prices are, but from investigations that were made several years ago we concluded that they were charging about 30 per cent more than the average stores.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. In the case of deaths, accidental deaths, how are the coroner's juries impaneled and what are usually the decisions of the coroner's juries?

Mr. MCLENNAN. The coroner is usually, or has been for the last 15 years, in league with the coal companies in those particular counties. There is no particular method of impaneling a jury. Some of these coroner's jurymen have been on the jury for about 20 years—as long as they lived. The coroner's jury usually is the same during his entire term. Usually the juries are composed of officers of the coal companies.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And what is usually their verdict?

Mr. MCLENNAN. The verdict is always-there have been only one or two exceptions-the verdict has been that the company has been exonerated from all blame.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. What is the opinion of yourself and the other officers of the miner's organization as to the causes of these deaths?

Mr. MCLENNAN. Our opinion is that these deaths are due, in a great many cases, to the neglect of the companies to enforce the mining laws; in other cases to the hiring of inexperienced miners. I believe that those are the two

greatest contributing causes to the deaths that have occurred in the mining regions of this State.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Is there an apparent effort to keep about a certain percentage of the various nationalities employed all the time? In other words, to keep 25 per cent of one language and 25 per cent of another, and so on? To keep that conglomerated state of different-speaking nationalities employed? Is there an effort to keep that separation?

Mr. MCLENNAN. The coal companies have never concealed the fact that that was their intention. They place an Italian working alongside of a Greek, a Croatian working alongside of an Austrian, and so on down the line of 22 or 23 different nationalities. Their purpose is that no two of them shall get together and discuss their grievances.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do the men in charge, the foremen and superintendents speak these various languages?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They do not.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. By what method are the men scientifically managed and the business handled? How are the directed? Are they just turned in and let loose?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They are turned loose to do the best they can. In some cases they have a member of the different nationalities who can speak some English, but the chief requirement of a pit boss or superintendent, up until this recent mining law was passed, was that he was able to handle a gun. I mentioned to one of the officers of the Colorado Fuel & Iron Co., when that law was in process of enactment, that if that law was passed, their superintendents would have to carry something else besides a gun, and he said, "What is that?" I said, "A certificate of competency as a miner." The chief power that was necessary for a mine boss for a good many years has been the ability of the mine boss to bulldoze men, and, when necessary, pull a gun on them. There has been absolutely no law in southern Colorado for 10 years except the law of the coal operators, and that has always been administered at the muzzle of a gun.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do the laws of Colorado require that the miner shall be paid semimonthly?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They do.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Are they paid semimonthly?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I believe they are now since the strike, and some time prior to the inauguration of the strike, but the law was enacted about 10 years prior to that and there was absolutely no attention paid to that law.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. In answer to a question from the chairman regarding the salaries paid to your organizers and Mother Jones and others and your general executive board, and those you enumerated-those salaries are paid by the entire membership of the United Mine Workers of America and not by the district organization?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They are paid by the organization at large in the United States and Canada.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. They are paid by the national organization and not by the Colorado organization?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They are.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. All these salaries and organizers' expenses?

Mr. MCLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. And your board members' salaries are all paid by the national organization and not by the Colorado district organization? I want to get that into the record.

Mr. MCLENNAN. That is right.

Commissioner O'CONNELL, Were these mines being operated under the eighthour law in accordance with the requirements of the law, prior to the strike? Mr. MCLENNAN. They were not.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Were the three companies commonly known as the three large mines, operated under the eight-hour law?

Mr. MCLENNAN. They were not. I can state in regard to the eight-hour law that there was an eight-hour law enacted in 1905. Mr. Osgood, before the congressional committee, testified with a whole lot of pride that he and not Senator Guggenheim emasculated that eight-hour law. The operators have always fought to the extent of their ability the enactment of every law that was presented by organized labor in this State. The eight-hour law of 1905 was changed to the extent that it applied only to the men who were mining coal; it left out the company men, the mule drivers, machine men, etc.

The coal companies, when that law went into effect, complied with it for possibly a couple of weeks; after that was over they paid no more attention to it, and have not complied with it until the law went into effect in 1913. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Then they were not complying with even what they thought the law applied to at the time the strike occurred?

Mr. MCLENNAN. At the time the strike occurred they were making an attempt to comply with some of the law.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. At the time, then, when your demands were made? Mr. MCLENNAN. At the time we started organizing or started a campaign to organize in 1912-January, 1912. The miners in April of that year were demanding that the national organization assist them in financing a strike. They were ready to strike in 1912, in April.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Well, if the laws were not being carried out, the laws as to these stores, the laws as to the discharge of union men for being union men, and the eight-hour law, and these mine investigations and all that, if these laws were being violated, what effort was made to get the proper officials to enforce the laws, and why were they not enforced?

Mr. MCLENNAN. We took the matter up several times with the governor of Colorado and he stated that he was absolutely powerless to enforce the laws in those counties unless he could get some assistance from the civil authorities in those respective counties. Since that time, however, there has been a decision by the Supreme Court of Colorado to the effect that the attorney general can go into any particular county and act as prosecutor. Commissioner O'CONNELL. When was that decision rendered?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I believe it was about two years ago.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Well, has he proceeded under the law, then, in the

cases?

Mr. MCLENNAN. He has proceeded to prosecute the miners. I have no knowledge of him prosecuting the operators.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. What was the case in which that decision was rendered, and who were the judges that gave that decision?

Mr. MCLENNAN. I haven't got-I don't recollect the particular instances. How I recollect that such a decision was rendered was when one of our organizers was assaulted and almost killed in Huerfano County by men whom we recognized as two deputy sheriffs and one superintendent and another assistant superintendent of the coal companies. I went personally to the district attorney at that time and urged him to prosecute the case. He did not refuse to prosecute. If I remember correctly, he said he would take it up with his deputy in Walsenburg. The deputy in Walsenburg told the organizer that he could not do anything for him, that he had no right to be there. We took the matter up with Gov. Shafroth, and he instructed the attorney general at that time to make an investigation, and if he found it necessary to institute a prosecution; but the case never has been brought to a prosecution that I know of.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. In your chronicling the number of strikes which had taken place in the State of Colorado, I notice you mention one particular county where nearly all these strikes have occurred-away back.

Mr. MCLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. What was that county?

Mr. MCLENNAN. Fremont.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Fremont County. What was the particular reason for these strikes all starting in Fremont County? Were the mines located there in the early days?

Mr. MCLENNAN. In those early days the largest number of mines were located in Fremont County-in those early days.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you know the history of the United Mine Workers' organization, as to its organization, its claimed date of birth, and so on? I am speaking now of the international organization.

Mr. MCLENNAN. Yes.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Do you recall the time that it is claimed to have been first organized as an international organization? Mr. MCLENNAN. I believe it was organized in 1890. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes; I think you are correct. In the testimony given by Mr. Osgood, now, without going into this thing in detail-this stenographic report here-I have in answer to a question from me to Mr. Osgood as to whether there were any particular kind of organization that he would recognize, he having said that he would not deal with the United Mine Workers of America under any circumstances, and that more than 30 years ago he had left

Iowa because of a similar refusal or trouble he had, and had sacrificed $400,000 or more because of trouble he had with them there. The point I want to ask you is, Was the United Mine Workers of America in existence 30 years ago as an organization?

Mr. MCLENNAN. It was not. I would like to say in reference to Iowa that I believe Iowa has not had a strike in 14 years. In fact, I don't believe they have had any trouble in Iowa since Mr. Osgood left there.

Chairman WALSH. Any other questions? If there are no questions, that is all; thank you, Mr. McLennan. You will be excused.

Mr. James H. Blood. Oh, Mr. Blood is in court, I believe. Mr. Curtis; will you please take that chair, Mr. Curtis?

TESTIMONY OF MR. W. W. CURTIS.

Chairman WALSH. State your name, please.

Mr. CURTIs. Walter W. Curtis.

Chairman WALSH. What is your business?

Mr. CURTIS. I am an engineer by profession and am president now of the Rapson Coal Mining Co.

Chairman WALSH. Where are the mines of that company situated?

Mr. CURTIS. We have two, one situated in Las Animas County, just across the Huerfano County line, the railroad station being at Rugby; the other is at Colorado Springs.

Chairman WALSH. How many men are employed in those mines?

Mr. CURTIS. Variable, of course, with the weather. We have now, I should say, at Rapson No. 1, which is at Rugby, 140 or 150 men. At Colorado Springs we have only about 75 at the present time.

Chairman WALSH. How long have you been engaged in the mining of coal? Mr. CURTIS. If you refer to the company, about 14 years. If you refer to me, only directly in active mining during the last year and a half. I have been a stockholder six or seven years, but only actively engaged in the management of it for the last year and a half.

Chairman WALSH. Have you had any interest in or anything to do with coal mines in other States than Colorado?

Mr. CURTIS. No, sir.

Chairman WALSH. I have been informed that you are working under an agreement with the United Mine Workers?

Mr. CURTIS. We are.

Chairman WALSH. When did you first sign an agreement with the United Mine Workers of America?

Mr. CURTIS. Well, I think we first signed an agreement with them 8 or 10 years ago, but the conditions under that were so unsatisfactory that very shortly-I can not say how shortly, but after a year or two-it was abandoned. The present agreement was made following the strike of September, last year. Chairman WALSH. Now, what were your reasons for entering into this agreement, Mr. Curtis?

Mr. CURTIS. Necessity.

Chairman WALSH. What was the necessity?

Mr. CURTIS. Our Colorado Springs mine has but a short life left in it. It is on leased ground and the ground is pretty thoroughly worked out, and it has but a couple years of life left in it. We did not feel that we were justified in engaging on a long and expensive fight for the amount at issue. Then some of our competitors in the Springs showed a disposition, and announced their determination, to sign the contract, and we felt obliged to follow suit.

Chairman WALSH. Could you give us a concise statement of the terms of your agreement with the union?

Mr. CURTIS. Oh, I would not attempt to. We will file a copy of it, if you would like. It is the same agreement that is in existence, I think, with all the mines that are operating under union conditions.

Chairman WALSH. Well, we have that already.

Mr. CURTIS. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. Has your mine been operated successfully or unsuccessfully under the union agreement?

Mr. CURTIS. We have managed to make money, if that is success.

Chairman WALSH. Do you consider it possible to mine coal successfully in Colorado under the conditions contained in the agreement with the United Mine Workers of America?

Mr. CURTIS. We have done so during the past year, and I see no reason why it should not be done, provided those conditions could be lived up to and enforced.

Chairman WALSH. Are they being lived up to and enforced?

Mr. CURTIS. They are not.

Chairman WALSH. In what particular is the failure found?

Mr. CURTIS. Well, the difficulty that we have to contend with is the peculiarities, to put it mildly, of the men in the mines. Now, I told you we had two mines. In Colorado Springs we have a good class of men, a number of men who have been with us a great many years. We had two mines there, one operated by a different company-the Curtis Coal Mining Co.-up until two years ago, when it was destroyed by fire. The consequence is that we have a large force there of men who have been with us for a great many years and who have been picked. They are good, faithful men, who make no trouble for us, for themselves, or for anybody else. In the southern field we have a different and an inferior class of labor to contend with. There we have had a great deal of difficulty in the way of minor annoyances from the men in the interference of the pit committee with the operation of the mine. However, usually we have managed to keep the committee under control.

In the Colorado Springs mine there has never been a complaint come to me or any appeal come to me from the men until, oh, perhaps a month or two ago, when the pit committee wanted to present some matters to me, which I took up with them. But there has never been during the past year any difficulty in that mine in the way of conflicts between the miners and the superintendents or the pit boss which necessitated appealing to me. This one which came to me a month or two ago was simply a request of the men for some modifications of the conditions of the contract which existed between us and the United Mine Workers. Most of those requests I refused, because they were in violation of their own agreement, and there was no difficulty whatever about it. In the south I have never had any appeal made to me by the men. You will perhaps remember, if you have looked over the contract between the union and the operators, that that contract provides for the settlement of disputes between the pit boss and the individual miner through the pit committee and the superintendent or the pit committee and the boss first. If they are unable to reach an agreement, then it is supposed to go to the local officers and the superintendent. In case of failure to get satisfaction there, it goes to the district officers, I believe, and the owners of the mine-officers of the company. Now, I never had a case come to me. There was one case where Mr. McLennan, representing the union, and I got together on a point, but that really was not an appeal, or at least I did not consider it so, and we settled it without any difficulty.

I want to say, by the way, that so far as the officers of the union are concerned we have had no complaint whatever to make. Mr. McLennan has always shown himself ready and willing to consider anything brought to him and to do what he could to see that we got fair treatment and that the miners properly performed their part of the contract. However, we have had a great many cases of interference in the southern mine on the part of the pit committee, and that has recently eventuated in a matter which may compel us to sever our connection altogether with the union.

I have some papers here which I would like to submit, because I think if this commission is going into this question and if union labor in this field is to be a success it can only come about by the maintenance of the rights of both parties to the contract and absolute fairness on the part of both sides to the contract. Now, incidentally, I want to show what kind of men we have had to deal with. I have here————

Chairman WALSH (interrupting). I will ask you right there, before you start on that, Mr. Curtis, what proportion of English-speaking miners have you in your mines?

Mr. CURTIS. Practically all speaking English to a greater or less degree. I counted up some months ago, took the pay roll and went through the names, and judging by the names, which is not always a safe criterion, I figured that probably 80 per cent of our miners were foreign born, and probably pretty near that per cent represented men with-well, relatively little knowledge of English. Now, that last is an assumption on my part, which I have never verified, but a large per cent of our miners are foreign born. Probably all can speak English to a greater or less extent; some of them, however, very little.