GOV. AMMONS. Yes; right along after that.

Chairman WALSH. I believe that was the convention that voted in favor of this strike?

GOV. AMMONS. I think they had two conventions. My recollection is they had one, and then one a little later that declared-no, did not declare a strike, but fixed a date; I am not sure about that. I think they had two meetings, though, whether it was the convention called at Trinidad that called the strike, I think the first one, if I recall correctly, was where the operators were invited to meet with them.

Chairman WALSH. Were the facts this way: That the miners' convention met and voted in favor of the strike, and then took an adjournment for one week?

GOV. AMMONS. It is something of that sort; I have forgotten the exact detail. Chairman WALSH. After the strike was declared, did you have a conference? Gov. AMMONS. I think that-yes; this is going back, before you ask that. Chairman WALSH. Yes.

Gov. AMMONS. When I took up the matter of conference with the operators, their statement to me was the reason they declined the conference was that it was an attempt to secure recognition for the organization known as the United Mine Workers of America; that they were willing at any time to take up any matter of grievance with their own men, but that this organization did not represent them, and that their main object in wanting this conference was 10 secure that much of recognition for their organization; that they maintained from the beginning to the present time.

Chairman WALSH. Now, do you recall the date that the strike was declared, Governor?

GOV. AMMONS. It was the 23d of September, is my recollection.
Chairman WALSH. And what was the date the troops were called out?

Gov. AMMONS. About 30 days later, the night of the 27th and the 28th of October.

Chairman WALSH. Now, immediately following the strike, what was the first request at what time was the first request made upon you to call out the troops?

GOV. AMMONS. Oh, I do not know. It was some time--I do not recall; lawlessness began almost immediately down there.

Chairman WALSH. Would you prefer that I ask you the specific questions, Governor, or would you rather detail what you have to say?

GOV. AMMONS. If I see anything that I can help you in there I will do so; but I would rather you ask what you want, and I can tell you. There are matters I know that I could spend a week on here, and probably be of no advantage to anybody.

Chairman WALSH. Very good. Following the calling of the strike, when was the first demand made upon you to call out troops, and by whom?

Gov. AMMONS. I can't tell you just when it was. It was by the local authorities-the sheriff. I was urged by people down there to call out the troops right away, even before the strike was called-that they thought it would be dangerous.

Chairman WALSH. What people?

Gov. AMMONS. People down there, and different other classes of people that did not want me to do it. It was quite a contest all the time. It was on the phone, letters, but generally on the phone, constantly that that question was up from the beginning, even in advance of the day on which the strike began.

Chairman WALSH. Between the time that the strike———

GOV. AMMONS. And I want to say this: The general condition was bad from the beginning; that the operators wanted protection and demanded protection for their property, and the United Mine Workers were just as insistent that they were not needed, and that they ought not to be called on. The people there that did not belong to either side were at first somewhat divided, but be fore the troops were called out I think they were practically unanimous, because a great many of them who had in the first place advised me it would not be necessary, changed their position entirely the last few days before we called the troops out and urged that it should be done. And before they were called out the requests had been made officially from all of the county authorities, or the local authorities, except the district attorney. I do not recollect that he joined in it. Both Las Animas and Huerfano Counties, all of them having declared their inability to control the situation.

Chairman WALSH. Where did the first act of violence occur after the calling of the strike, if you recall, Governor?

Gov. AMMONS. My recollection is that it was when the town marshal up there was shot.

Chairman WALSH. At what place?

GOV. AMMONS. I think-I forget what town it was-right near Trinidad. Chairman WALSH. How many specific acts of violence were there prior to the calling out of the troops?

Gov. AMMONS. They were constant almost, a great many of them; I couldn't tell you how many.

Chairman WALSH. In what portion of the State?

GOV. AMMONS. Well, in Las Animas and Huerfano Counties.

Chairman WALSH. Had there been any criminal prosecutions started in those counties against individuals prior to the calling out of the troops?

GOV. AMMONS. At what time? Of what kind?

Chairman WALSH. Of any sort that you know of-that is, growing out of this industrial dispute?

Gov. AMMONS. Well, there was one shooting down there, and I suppose that would be included; that probably never would have occurred had it not been for the strike. That was just before the strike was called, as I recall it.

Chairman WALSH. How many requests were there? Were there any requests from the judges that were presiding in the courts of those counties, that you recall?

GOV. AMMONS. Well, there was just one judge, one district there.
Chairman WALSH. Did he join in the request?

Gov. AMMONS. I am not-I do not recall for certain whether he did or not, but I think so.

Chairman WALSH. You say the district attorney did not join in the request? Gov. AMMONS. My recollection is that he did not. I am not positive about

that; I do not recall his name as being used.

Chairman WALSH. Were the requests from the sheriff in writing?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. And are on file. I suppose?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir; and mayors and everybody else, nearly-county commissioners; all the authorities joined, unless it was the district attorney. I am not sure about that; my recollection is that he did not.

Chairman WALSH. Were there any organizations of the citizens that made any demand one way or the other?

Gov. AMMONS. Well, I told you that in the first place the citizens were somewhat divided on that, but at the present, so far as I know, they are practically unanimous.

Chairman WALSH. But what I mean, Governor, is were there any organiza

tions

GOV. AMMONS. I don't know.

Chairman WALSH. Were there any organizations formed in which the action was taken by the citizens?

Gov. AMMONS. I do not know about that. There were a great many petitions filed.

Chairman WALSH. Were there any executive orders issued by you in reference to the situation in the coal fields prior to the time that the militia were ordered out?

GOV. AMMONS. I think so. Those are all matters of record. I would be glad to have the commission get any fact there is in my office; get it in its own way. Chairman WALSH. Your recollection is that it was some-that there was some act of violence prior to that time?

Gov. AMMONS. Probably there were, but I do not recall just what they were. Chairman WALSH. But, of course

Gov. AMMONS. The strike is on record there, and everything is at your disposal.

Chairman WALSH. Of course all orders calling the troops out are on file in your office?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Did it or did it not contain instructions to the military officers?

Gov. AMMONS. No, sir. But there were instructions issued additional, in an additional order to Gen. Chase.

Chairman WALSH. When were the instructions issued with referenceGov. AMMONS. At the time-immediately afterwards-next morning-this call-this proclamation calling out the troops was probably 1 or 2 o'clock in the morning, after having been there several days and nights conferring, trying to secure a settlement between the operators and the United Mine Workers. I thought I was going to get a settlement, and during those last, probably 50, hours there was constant fighting going on down there, and two towns were virtually surrounded at all times, day and night, and several people were killed; two children were shot in bed. I had constant appeals over the phone from women in those two towns of Tabasco and Berwind for protection, to get the troops there.

Chairman WALSH. You say there were conferences being held and going on down to the time

Gov. AMMONS (interrupting). Indirect conferences. conferences, and I got indirect conferences.

I could not get direct

Chairman WALSH. I understand. There was no time, I understand, Governor, when the operators and the mine workers, or any portion of them, met together.

GOV. AMMONS. Not to my knowledge. No, sir. I could not get them together.

Chairman WALSH. Now, these conferences you held were held with the separate sections?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Where were they held?

GOV. AMMONS. At my office.

Chairman WALSH. And were the mine operators represented by this same committee?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. And the mine workers by the same individuals you have mentioned, practically?

Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. Now, after the calling out of the militia, where was the first conflict between the troops and any other persons in the State?

Gov. AMMONS. There were no conflicts between the troops after they were called out, until the Ludlow affair. There was some rioting, which they were able to handle very nicely. It was a large territory. The troops went down there, I think, about the 28th of October.

Chairman WALSH. What was the date of the Ludlow affair?

Gov. AMMONS. Twentieth of April. They went down about the 28th of October. Now, during that time, notwithstanding rioting and the bad condition that was found when the troops went down there, there was not a single striker shot. There were two men shot by the militia--by the National Guard. One of them was a nonunion miner, a negro, who had shot a town marshal, I think, up somewhere in the Hastings neighborhood. I am not sure, but he had shot him twice and it was supposed to be fatal, and he was trying to get away; and, on request of the local authority, I believe, four or five of the National Guard were detailed to try to apprehend him. He saw them coming when they were looking for him, before they saw him, and opened fire on them, and he fired 28 shots at them before they killed him. There was another, a nonunion miner, tried to break through the picket line one night, and it was dark, and the young fellow on guard on the picket line tried to prevent his coming through, and not knowing whether the man was trying to take advantage of him or not, had cocked his gun, and he prodded him with his bayonet and perhaps touched the trigger, probably, and in some way the gun was fired, and it killed the fellow. Those were the only two.

Chairman WALSH. At the time the proclamation calling out the troops was issued, Governor, and the instructions given, will you please state whether or not those instructions covered the question of the bringing in of strike breakers? Gov. AMMONS. Yes, sir.

Chairman WALSH. And the general nature of the order was that strike breakers should not be brought in?

GOV. AMMONS. Well, now, I will answer that in this way: I thought I was very close to a settlement the night the troops had to go out. I had, in fact, a feeling that there was such a fair prospect of settlement I had delayed sending the troops probably a couple of days longer than I should. Finally things got so bad I could not postpone that any longer; but I felt that I had gotten so close to a settlement that I would be justified in straining the law and I

held things in abeyance for a time until I could make further efforts. So I instructed them, until further orders, that no strike breakers should be brought in, but that those that wanted to go to work down there should be protected in that right. I continued my efforts at a settlement, being delayed from one cause or another, until along probably past the middle of the month-following month.

Chairman WALSH. That order

Gov. AMMONS (interrupting). Just a moment, please. Then I learned that Secretary of Labor Wilson was going to be in the West, or was in the West, and I asked him to come here; and I asked President Wilson to send him here, feeling that as a member of the United Mine Workers of America-and I had been so informed-he would be of great assistance to me, and being in that official position, he could be of great assistance in promoting a settlement of the strike. He consented to come. He was here about 10 days. During that time a conference was secured between three of the operators and three of their former employees in my office, and at their request I presided. Secretary Wilson was there except at one session. They discussed all-or part of the matters in dispute; I think all but two. There was an understanding-or I had the understanding in the beginning, and I am sure Secretary Wilson did, that in this conference the question of the recognition of the union was not to be brought up. I think, Mr. Chairman, that one thing I omitted to say prior to the strike was that, in my opinion, there never was any other question that could not have been easily overcome in the disputes between them than the question of the recognition of the union, and that without that the strike would have been called off-that it would not have been called, or if it had been called it would have been easily settled. I think that has been true from the beginning.

It was understood by myself when this conference was secured that this question of recognition was not to be mentioned and it was not until the very last thing when the points of difference between the operators and the miners were discussed in a very friendly and free manner. There is a complete stenographic report of those proceedings, and I have a copy of it, if the congressional committee has returned it; there have been so many of these investigations, and I have loaned a good many papers and documents.

Chairman WALSH. Mr. Stenographer, please make a note to call for that copy later on.

GOV. AMMONS. I think I can undoubtedly find it; I think it has been returned from the congressional committee. I have all of the records in my office, I think, if they have all been returned. After the discussion on each point, I myself called the roll of the six men to see whether they agreed individually after they had talked over the matter in a tentative way, and every point was agreed upon down to the question of-the question of wages was discussed a little, but it was not serious, and it has never been in any of the conferences that have come to me direct or otherwise. And the question of settlement of future disputes. Those are the two things left that Secretary Wilson thought ought to be taken up. One of the men-and I have forgotten their names-I have them downstairs-representing the miners, then raised the question of recognition of the union, whether in express terms I do not know, but Mr. Brown stated that they had come here with the understanding that they were not to discuss that question, and if we were going to discuss it then the conference was at an end, and after a few words that was dropped, and it was agreed that I should suggest to both sides-that I should write a letter suggesting a settlement on the lines of the discussion at this conference, which I did. I prepared it and went over it with Secretary of Labor Wilson, who approved it, and I put it exactly along the lines of their discussion. I did add one thing, and I don't know but another little matter that was not discussed fully, and that was the right of the men to board and trade where they pleased; and I think there was one other-some other little matter that had come up in a great many talks I had had with miners, and with the representatives of the United Mine Workers of America, and I prepared this letter and subImitted it to both sides.

At that time Secretary Wilson and myself both felt pretty close to a settlement. Secretary Wilson then suggested that a settlement would not amount to much unless there was something to take care of the matter in the future, and he said that he thought-he said that he could make a certain suggestion that might help that matter, and I asked him to prepare that. I had prepared the other matter. He wrote a letter suggesting arbitration of some sort; I have

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forgotten just what the detail is. We have the letter down here, and you can get that on this point of wages and the adjustment of future differences-and this letter we also submitted to both sides. My recollection is that he joined with me in signing the first letter-that is, my letter-and that I joined with him in signing the second one.

Immediately objection was made to the second one on the ground that until the other was passed upon it would be useless to present that, and Secretary Wilson suggested that we withdraw the second letter pending action on the first.

The operators accepted the first, and the United Mine Workers rejected it. Secretary Wilson spent about two days with me in conferences, some of which were in my office and some of which were down town, and came in and said that it was useless to attempt further; that at that time nothing could be accomplished and that he would return to Washington-this was not far from the 1st of December-and that if he could be of any use later he would return.

At the close of this conference between the operators and the miners I had a talk with the three miners, in which they told me that when they came up here I refer to this question of recognition of the union-they told me when they came up here they had been instructed to accept nothing but recognition of the union.

64

Chairman WALSH. Did they state, Governor, what they meant by recognition of the union"?

GOV. AMMONS. No; those three men did not.

Chairman WALSH. Was that ever discussed in your conferences-what they meant by " recognition of the union"?

GOV. AMMONS. That conference did not take up that question; that conference was held with the understanding that it was not even to be mentioned.

Chairman WALSH. When they stated to you that their instructions were to take up the question of recognition of the union, as I understand you, they did not state what they meant by that?

Gov. AMMONS. No; I thought it was understood. As to myself, I understood all the time it meant the closed shop, unionized closed shop, with the check-off system and everything that went with it.

Chairman WALSH. Your understanding was, whenever that term was used, "recognition of the union," that it meant closed shop and everything that went with that?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes, sir; I never heard that disputed in all the discussions. Secretary Wilson, however, said there might be a modified form of that, in one of his talks to me, and it was not necessary to go that far; but there was never any conference or talk to me, in which I did not have that understanding of the term.

Chairman WALSH. And so far as you know, of course, that was the understanding of the employers as well?

GOV. AMMONS. Yes, sir. I never heard it discussed by either side when I had any other understanding of it.

Chairman WALSH. Prior to the conferences that you had, and in which Secretary Wilson took part, had there been any modification of the first order you gave with reference to the bringing in of strike breakers?

GOV. AMMONS. No; that was continued as long as I saw there was any hope of settlement; that is, I tried to hold everything right were it was, although the law permitted the operators to employ anyone if he knew there was a strike on. I felt that the situation was much more serious than people generally supposed, and I felt warranted under the circumstances in going to rather an extreme measure to bring about a settlement if possible, believing that almost any sort of a settlement was better than a continuance of the struggle. We were hoping-not expecting to do it so long. We were hoping-in fact. I held everything in abeyance as long as possible trying to bring about this settlement, until I came to the conclusion that nothing could be done in the immediate future, and at that time-as soon as Secretary Wilson had advised me of his intention about this, I issued an order to Gen. Chase, calling his attention to what this law was and asking him to enforce it rigidly, and that all other laws, whatever they were, should be absolutely and rigidly enforced. I gave testimony a moment ago of the laws I thought might throw some light on that situation. In following out this I suggested to the General that he try to see everyone that came into the district who wanted to go to work. During this time there was a coal shortage and prices went up. There was quite a good deal of unrest about it, and I was very severely criticized for not permitting men to