Mr. MCNAB. That may be the excuse given by the Government.
Commissioner GARRETSON. Is it an excuse or a reason?

Mr. MCNAB. I don't think it is a reason, and I will tell you why I don't think it is a reason. The United States Government is a big, powerful machine, and it is equipped with expert and trained men who haven't hesitated to go any length in order to present evidence, and they ought to be at least presumed to be capable of solving that question.

Commissioner GARRETSON. And yet it is sworn to here I won't go further than right here

Mr. MCNAB. Yes, sir.

Commissioner GARRETSON. That with this power of the Government, visible power, that it has been demonstrated time after time that the power of the United States Government could not remove an interpreter that was notoriously corrupt, on account of the invisible influence?

Mr. MCNAB. Are the Chinese to blame for the influence?

Commissioner GARRETSON. I haven't any doubt whatever that the influence is nonracial. That if what the Chinese desire falls in with the desire of great interests that are non-Chinese, that they will avail themselves of the services of each other.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I want to point out to the commission that the alleged weak spot in the proposed amendment, to the effect that under it a member of a privileged class living 500 miles away from a populated center would be subjected to annoyance and expense and indignity and all that sort of thing that that alleged weakness is greater under the plan proposed by Mr. McNab than under the plan we have before us, for this reason: Under the proposed plan a Chinaman living 500 miles away from a center can get a certificate which protects him absolutely, unless the inspector robs him of it. Under your plan this man could not get a certificate to-day to prove his identity, and if your plan was carried out and the law was effectively prosecuted, you would have Chinamen all over the country, members of privileged classes, being dragged to these populated centers with their witnesses in order that they might establish their identity. Therefore this plan proposed is a very great protection to just such cases as you have in mind or have been suggested by Mr. Busiek.

Mr. MCNAB. What is there in this bill that prevents a repetition of the thing that is constantly going on here, of that certificate being taken up on the ground that it is fraudulent? That immigration officer, or whoever it is, hasn't any power to issue a receipt that will protect him. He issues a socalled receipt and then fails to turn back the certificate.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. The victim in that case would always have the redress as afforded by this law, to get a duplicate.

Mr. MCNAB. In the meantime he probably has been arrested and taken off to some distant port.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Granting that this is true, and granting that it is an imposition and hardship and burden upon the victim, but under your plan the chances for doing that would be far greatly increased, because not any of these men might be in a position where they happened to be found and located to prove to the satisfaction of the inspector that they were entitled or that they were members of the privileged class?

Mr. MCNAB. I can't see it in that light.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Have I made that clear to you?

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Suppose we ask Mr. McNab to take one of these and write his criticism on it. Look it over at his leisure carefully.

Mr. MCNAB. I would be glad if I can be of any service to the commission. Chairman WALSH. I understand Mr. McNab says it is wrong in principle and wrong in practice, and indefensible from any standpoint.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. In addition to that, if the idea don't appeal to you at all, you might give us some suggestion along that line.

Mr. MCNAB. That is all, is it?

Chairman WALSH. Yes; thank you. Very much obliged to you.

Mr. MCNAB. I want to express my appreciation of the commission even discussing that situation, because you will understand we haven't had an opportunity to present these matters before anybody, and we are profoundly grateful to you for an opportunity to explain them. I wish I had an opportunity to look over this bill and explain it intelligently.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You can see it is not the purpose of this body to act arbitrarily.

It

Mr. MCNAB. Anybody who had any common sense wouldn't assume it was. was not appointed for that purpose, and the character of the men on the board shows it wouldn't. We are very profoundly grateful to you.

Chairman WALSH. We will now adjourn until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12.45 o'clock p. m. Saturday, September 5, 1914, an adjournment was taken until 2 o'clock p. m.)

AFTERNOON SESSION-2 P. M.

Met pursuant to adjournment. Present as before, Commissioner Garretson presiding.

Acting Chairman GARRETSON. The commission will be in order.

Mr. BUSIEK. Will you please be sworn, Mr. Fong?

Acting Chairman GARRETSON. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before this commission in the matter now under hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. FONG. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MR. M. Q. FONG.

Mr. BUSIEK. Please give the commission your name in full.

Mr. FONG. My name is M. Q. Fong.

Mr. BUSIEK. And you live here in San Francisco?

Mr. FONG. My home is in Oakland; business, San Francisco.

Mr. BUSIEK. What business are you now in?

Mr. FONG. In the drug line.

Mr. BUSIEK. What positions have you held-positions of trust and honor, Mr. Fong?

Mr. FONG. During the time after the earthquake in 1906, in the month of July, I entered the service of the Chinese consulate at San Francisco and remained there for about three years. Then I went East with a special commission representing the treasury department of China, studying into the banknote paper manufacture, and took up that line in the eastern mills for two years. I then returned to San Francisco and departed for China with some American engineers, when the Chinese revolution broke out, and that has kept me here up to this date.

Mr. BUSIEK. What position do you now hold, Mr. Fong?

Mr. FONG. I am the president of the Republic Drug Co.; secretary of the Chinese Six Companies, also known as the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association; assistant secretary Chinese chamber of commerce; second secretary of the Yeong Wo Association. While I was East I spent a little time in Washington with the legation and had some special work for Wu Ting Fang.

Mr. BUSIEK. Mr. Fong, you have seen and considered a proposed bill which was laid before the Chinese chamber of commerce by Commissioner Weinstock which provides in general for reregistration of all Chinese in this country and giving them a status and provides for the checking up periodically of Chinese by Government officials. The original draft of the bill, as you know, has been amended so as to make this reregistration, or this registration, permissible on the part of the privileged classes of Chinese and compulsory on the part of the laborers. I wish you would tell the commission what the attitude of the Chinese organizations of this city has been toward that bill.

Mr. FONG. Mr. Steger, the attorney for the Chinese chamber of commerce, in the latter part of February phoned to me. He said, "Now we have an Industrial Relations Commission created by Congress, and I think it is best for us now to draw up some ideas how the Chinese are treated, and I would like to compile all the grievances so we can present it to Hon. Weinstock when he comes to San Francisco." I said, "Mr. Steger, all right, go ahead." "Well," he said, "it would take some time and possibly some money, too, possibly, to compile such a big volume of work which may incur a little expense which your chamber of commerce would not stand for." I said, "It would not be very much." He said, "Not very much." And I took that up in our regular directors' meeting and they said, "Sure, if Mr. Steger is going to compile something how the Chinese are treated and their general conduct and so on, tell him to go ahead." So I did. So that then a few days after that he called me up. Now, Mr. Fong, will you kindly let your chamber of commerce know that Mr. Weinstock would like to speak to that audience on the evening of March 18." I said we would gladly do so, so I reported that to the directors at their

meeting and a meeting was held to receive Hon. Mr. Weinstock, at the meeting on the night of Wednesday, March 18.

On that evening I was supposed to do the interpreting of Mr. Weinstock's speech. However, owing to my cold, Mr. Li and another one did it for the directors and for the chamber of commerce. On Monday, prior to the meeting, I asked Mr. Steger. I said, "Now, what will Mr. Weinstock talk about or lecture to us about?" "Well, he is going to touch on that proposed bill that I have drawn up for him." I said, “In what way?” “Well, you remember, I have talked to you through the phone that I was also to write a bill." But, for my part, I didn't know that plan-that this bill was to be one thing for Mr. Weinstock to address us.

And so I said, "Now, where is that bill?" "Why, I sent it up to one of your members." I says, "I haven't got it. I would like to know what it is," I said, "so that we can be prepared to listen to Hon. Weinstock when he addresses us." "Well, you had better call up your member." I got it either Tuesday afternoon or Wednesday morning, and that hardly gives me enough time to look over the thing; and so-well, when the evening came and the meeting of all the members were called and the Hon. Weinstock and Mr. Steger and Judge Harrington were there at about a little after 7, and Mr. Steger addressed the members and then introduced the Hon. Weinstock, and the Hon. Weinstock took up the matter, part by part, of the new law or new proposed bill, and also stating that the purpose of the commission was to suppress the smuggling through the borders, and that he understood that some thousand a month were coming in through the borders. And he read it very carefully, and at the conclusion he stated, “Now, do not take immediate action; think this over very carefully. This is not a small matter, but it is a great matter, and you should give it consideration."

After the meeting the whole members-most of the members-jump up on the president. "Well, how is it that you arrange for a meeting to read a bill to be submitted for our voting-although we can't do it to-night-that we know nothing about? How is it we haven't got this bill before us? And let us discuss it and see whether it will meet with our approval, instead of taking Hon. Weinstock's time, and to go over it part by part when we do not know a thing about it." It was a very pleasant surprise to me. I called up Mr. Steger the following day and said: "Mr. Steger, you have done a fine thing to us. In the first place, you should have come up with that bill and read to the directors and let them pass on it, and if they think it should go to the whole membership of the Chinese chamber of commerce we would have taken it up with that part, and after it should go to them we arrange to have Hon. Mr. Weinstock go over with us, but as it is the whole thing is new to us and we are all up in the air." I says, "What are you doing this?" He says, "I spoke to one or two of your members and they seemed to approve it." I says, "That isn't the thing; we should have this beforehand, and discuss it so that it would not be new matter to all members."

In the meantime I was not secretary at that very particular moment for the Six Companies. They had hardly heard of this matter that night than they gave the chamber of commerce Hail Columbia. They says, "How is it you have such a bill or you folks have got up such a bill?" They understood we have got up the bill for Mr. Weinstock to address and for the Chinese action. And they have a meeting and Mr. McNab was there, and the president of the chamber of commerce was requested to appear before that body and give reasons why is it that such important matter the Chinese chamber of commerce go ahead and have it drawn up by your attorney and not let the Chinese know about it. It is a tremendous question; why should you go in such a tremendous hurry without letting us know about it? The president says he don't know nothing about this bill. We know Hon. Mr. Weinstock is coming to address us, and we are very happy and think it is a great privilege to receive a representative of President Wilson. He did not have any idea he was taking up with us such important subject and we had no idea. So that after hearing from the president they were much pacified, and said if that is the case we will take up the matter with Mr. Weinstock through Mr. McNab and the secretary, Mr. Gee See Hong. I don't know exactly what has taken place with Mr. McNab or the secretary.

Commissioner GARRETSON. IS Mr. McNab counsel for the Six Companies?
Mr. FONG. At that time.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Is he still counsel?

Mr. FONG. He is reelected and will continue until next July.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Is he still

Mr. FONG. He is really elected. He will continue until next July. Mr. BUSIEK. Just give the commission the action that was taken on that by the Chinese chamber of commerce and the Chinese Six Companies.

Mr. FONG. The Chinese chamber of commerce on that very night-the merchants, especially-we represent nobody but the merchants. They disapproved the way in which the bill was formerly. They say, "Here we were merchants in the former time, 20 years ago, the last registration, and we don't have to register." Although in the very beginning, I believe, the bill was not amended, it read as if everybody had to register. Of course, that gives more trouble than there would have been before. Suppose, we will say, last year or six months in China, although the provision provides so, he then thinks it is such an awful thing, why should we have to be registered any more than any other merchant? The treaty and the law of the immigration provides under certain statutes we be exempted from this law, and the immigration law had nothing to do with us, or the exclusion law. We are merchants; we don't want any more extra work to be done than necessary. Now, suppose we were to register. That means to say we would be under burden of certificate; and if we don't possess the certificate we would be simply like the laborer at the present timeharassed by the inspector all over. Here, have you a certificate?" If you say, "Yes," "Show it to me." Sometimes it may be in a trunk; sometimes it may be in some other belongings, or valise, or drawer; and sometimes they may take it out and dig it up, and sometimes they may say in such a place they have forgotten exactly where it is. "I guess you didn't have it. I don't think you ever had a certificate." Then he would simply be hauled to the nearest station to be questioned and locked up, and we would be under the same condition as those laborers; we would not be any better off; it would be no protection to us.

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And not only that, it would make it worse than nothing, from the laborer's standpoint. Of course, that would take in the students, travelers, natives as well as under the original draft of the bill. Of course, the native protested very strongly. "Why, we were never requested to do anything else outside "

Mr. BUSIEK. Let me interrupt you there. Under the amendment to the bill the native does not have to register. Of course, that is a privilege that he has. It will save him embarrassment.

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Mr. FONG. I wish to express both views of it; that is, the former view and the after view. In the former view they say, 'If we were to register, why, something I think it is great humiliation we call it. We were born here under the American flag, under the American Constitution, and why should we have to do it?"

Commissioner GARRETSON. You feel it is an indignity needlessly placed upon the exempt class?

Mr. FONG. The exempt class. Of course, after that clause is stricken out they can do it if they please; but that is no guarantee to us, anyway. Suppose if we don't have one, why, the bill would be this way: All would have to register, with the exception of the exempt class, and they can do it if they so pleased. All right.

If your honorable commission-if you only knew how the Chinese was treated here, that bill would do the Chinese more damage than good. The Chinese here would have to testify every time that they were legally here that they are legally here. The inspector always tries to make you a guilty party unless you can prove that you are innocent. If this bill goes through-and I am explaining this from the view of the exempted class-if this bill goes through, the laborer would have to be reregistered. Now, some of us would probably like to. So those who don't care to they don't think we ought to be subject to this new way. "No." "Why?

Inspector comes along, "Well, have you a certificate?" There was a registration law not long ago. Why didn't you get one?" don't have to have one." "Can you prove it?"

"I

He would have to get a great burden to prove why it would probably last a month. I have seen the thing done for the present time, not to say any of the future. At the present time is the same way, the same old story goes on. So the Chinese feel that if this thing is ever presented to Congress and passed by them it means more trouble to the Chinese in general. They feel this way. Now, the honorable commission representing President is to do the work and try to stop smuggling. Well, now, it is in our opinion that there are more or

less people smuggled through. There is no question about it. Now, isn't it a fact that they go through the eyes of the immigration officials? How can they ever pass through a border without being seen? Is it possible? Now, the honest Chinese feel that if the immigration officials at the border were carrying out their sworn duty this smuggling would be automatically stopped, if it was rigidly enforced, if there was no crooked work of any kind ever going on, they believe that they can watch them close enough, you know, without having them pour in as exaggerated by the reports which wasn't so. And also at the sea ports. Now, they think the only remedy can be done is to have these inspectors so discharge their duty, you know, that they would be strict at the borders and see that no immigration gets in, no smuggling comes in. They can't feel by having such a law, that would stop the smuggling. Now, this is the view of the law, to stop smuggling, and they think that this law works double, works a hardship on the Chinese themselves and yet won't do the work as it is represented to do.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Their viewpoint is that that law works a hardship on every innocent man to catch a guilty one?

Mr. FONG. Sure. Most surely. And works it on the guilty one, too
Commissioner GARRETSON Oh, yes; but of course that would be logical.

Mr. FONG. Logical, yes; but of course you know it is a very hard thing to do for a person to have those certificates of registration. Now, for instance, if a person is traveling from Los Angeles to San Francisco at the present time, an inspector is at Bakersfield and Fresno. At Bakersfield he boards the train. "Mr. Conductor, is there any Chinese on this train?" "Yes." He immediately comes to the berth. "Have you got a certificate of residence or any kind of a certificate showing that you have a right to be in this country?" Well, he either have to show it or there is something doing. And the same way, if he shows that certificate, “All right, go on." Either at midnight or at any time. And then he proceeds up to Fresno and another one comes. "Have you a certificate?"

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Have the Chinese recently held a large meeting on this matter?

Mr. FONG. What, on which matter? On the matter of this?
Commissioner O'CONNELL. On this bill, yes.

Mr. FONG. The Chinese Six Companies did have one, but that is right after the lecture given by Mr. Weinstock. They did have one.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Haven't you had a recent meeting where there were several hundred Chinamen present?

Mr. FONG. No; not under my time. I was in office the 1st day of April. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Wasn't there a meeting held a couple of weeks

ago?

Mr. FONG. On this subject?

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes.

Mr. FONG. Well, not to my knowledge. I don't seem to recall. was held-let's see, two weeks ago, a couple of weeks ago?

Mr. BUSIEK. Yes.

A meeting

Mr. FONG. Not exactly on the bill, but a meeting was held on the general principle, that is on the general treatment of Chinese, you know. We were prepared to get statements on the status, you know, so we can present it at any time.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Didn't this matter come up at that meeting in some way?

Mr. FONG. Not very strongly. Of course in all the Chinese meetings this bill had been a black eye to them.

Commissioner O'CONNELL. Wasn't there some question about the attorneys who had been representing this matter and representing some of your associations or organizations?

Mr. FONG. Why, I don't know as they stated it openly. Of course I wasn't at all the meetings, you know.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Could you discuss

Commissioner O'CONNELL, You better ask him.

Commissioner GARRETSON. Could you discuss the status of the Chinamen at the present time; that is, in a body of Chinamen, without this tentative bill naturally weaving itself into it?

Mr. FONG. What do you mean?

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. It means, if you had a meeting discussing these questions, that this bill would naturally bob up.