Mr. MCCABE. Well, I think it would take a crew-I know it would takeCommissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). You see it says [reading]: "Any Chinese or person of Chinese descent, who after six months from the passage of this act is found within the United States without such a certificate of residence shall be deemed to be unlawfully within the United States, and shall be arrested by any Commissioner of Immigration, or by his deputy, or by any persons whom the Secretary of Labor may authorize." Mr. MCCABE. Yes; I see. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Have full direct power. Mr. MCCABE. Well, five may do it, but Commissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). Well, the question as to number is a mere detail? Mr. MCCABE. Yes; a mere matter of administration. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. The chief point upon the scheme as a whole is whether it is practicable or desirable, or is there a better plan that can be devised? If so, what is it? We want it. Mr. MCCABE. Well, it seems to me as though it is the only practical way to do it, because Commissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). This plan has exactly your thought in mind in this: To-day a Chinaman is willing to pay the price; he is willing to subject himself to the physical hardships; knowing as he does that once planted in the country he is lost in the shuffle, the likelihood of his being deported is extremely remote. But if in addition to the financial expense and if in addition to the physical hardship there will be somebody after him all the time, and he is liable to be picked up at any moment and to be deported, it ought to have a very powerful restraining influence. Mr. McCABE. It would because it is sufficient to cut out the go-between, and there is no incentive Commissioner WEINSTOCK. (interrupting). Take the profit out of the game. Mr. MCCABE. Yes, sir. For instance, assume that if the courts will deport cases or a large per cent of them that alone would be enough— Commissioner WEINSTOCK (interrupting). To frighten them off? Mr. MCCABE. Yes, sir. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Now, the question is, does this crew whom we can suppose that you have appointed-but, first, under the present system this thing is done by the courts. The courts, I take it, from experience you have found to be very unreliable, and you feel that if this work were done by commissions trained in this particular thing, who had no other interests, better results would follow? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And it would be more certain. Now, then, this removes that present weakness? Mr. MCCABE, Yes. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. And, secondly, you have trained men who are in a position to do nothing but this particular work, and who, as Mr. Edsall has pointed out, can go into all these places-can drop into a community and, by their experience and by the underground information which they are able to secure, they would be able to find out the contraband Chinese? Mr. MCCABE. Well, of course, every man would have to have a certificate in that case or be enrolled? Commissioner O'CONNELL. Now, one question in this connection: Suppose there are about 6,000 to 7,000, and say that one-third of them in the United States are illegally here. As a matter of argument, would a law of this kind, which would give everybody a certificate of eligiblity Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Or a passport Commissioner O'CONNELL (continuing). Would that open up a new line of a large number of Chinamen seeking to bring over their children here? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No; that would not change that situation. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Wouldn't it give us a new line here of Chinese who would be eligible to remain here and entitled to the same privilege? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. No; he would have to prove he was a merchant. Mr. MCCABE. The same law would be there as to registration and the method of expulsion? Commissioner O'CONNELL. Wouldn't it be possible for him to go into business as a merchant Mr. MCCABE (interrupting). Or it would legalize a lot of unlawful persons here, who would then be eligible; yes, it would. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Yes; and then they would turn around and bring in their children or some other Chinaman's children? Mr. MCCABE. They could try it. Commissioner O'CONNELL. Wouldn't that open up a new line for a large influx in that direction? Mr. MCCABE, No. Mr. BUSIEK. Are not the chief frauds now cases of fellows establishing a merchant's status for the purpose of bringing in children? Mr. MCCABE. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. And there are 20,000 Chinese that do not dare now to attempt that, because it would mean their attempt to establish such a status and they would be looked up? Mr. MCCABE. Yes, sir; their legal right to be in the United States would be looked up Mr. BUSIEK (interrupting). Now, those 20,000 Chinese now quietly living in this country that now fear to attempt to establish such a status, even to bring over their own children, would have nothing to fear in that regard? Mr. MCCABE. No. Mr. BUSIEK. And they could establish a fraudulent status and bring over their children? Mr. MCCABE. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. And in that respect it would open up the gates to a lot of fraud? Mr. MCCABE, Yes. And perhaps you must strengthen the method of proof for the merchant's status. For instance, there is no real fear on the part of any person other than the Chinese testifying that he knows this Chinese person, and from his observation of him he believes that he works in a store, and he describes visiting the store-going down there on a visit two or three times a week and seeing him in there. He does not fear that he is going to suffer any result from it. Whereas if it was before the court he might not care about going in and testifying to that effect if he really did not know it. Mr. BUSIEK. Is that all, Mr. Weinstock? Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is all. Mr. BUSIEK. Will you send in your interpreter? Mr. MCCABE. Yes; now, let's see, you want the correspondence with the Seattle office in relation to Mrs. Hing? Mr. BUSIEK. And the letter to the district attorney in regard to the commissioner-designating the commissioner-all that correspondence. Mr. MCCABE. Yes. TESTIMONY OF MR. SHERE F. MOY. Mr. BUSIEK. State your name. Mr. Moy. Shere F. Moy. Mr. BUSIEK. Shere F. Moy? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. How long have you been in the Government service? Mr. Moy. Since 1902. Mr. BUSIEK. And you have been stationed at what places? Mr. Moy. Buffalo, N. Y. Mr. BUSIEK (interrupting) When? Mr. Moy. Since 1902 until 1907 I was transferred to Philadelphia; and then in 1909, about the middle of September, I was transferred to Boston, and have been here ever since. Mr. BUSIEK. You are the only interpreter at this port, are you not, or for the New England district? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Just explain briefly what your duties are as interpreter. Mr. Moy. Act as interpreter. Mr. BUSIEK. You simply interpret the questions put Mr. Moy (interrupting). Put by the inspector and from the court and by the questions put by the district attorney if we go to court. Mr. BUSIEK. How many Chinese would you say there are in the New England district, about? Mr. Moy. Well, I couldn't say exactly; but approximately I think about between 3,000 and 3,300. Mr. BUSIEK. And about how many of those are in Boston? Mr. Moy. In Boston, of course, I never Mr. BUSIEK. Just your judgment is what we want? Mr. Moy. I should judge in Massachusetts about 1,500 or 1,800, in Massachusetts, but I don't know how many in Boston, exactly. Mr. BUSIEK. Most of them are on Boston? Mr. Moy. Boston, I guess, about 800 or 900 perhaps; but I am not sure, though. Mr. BUSIEK. Eight hundred of nine hundred is your judgment of the number in Boston? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Are you a native-born American? Mr. Moy. No, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. What is your status? How is it you are admitted? the son of a merchant? Are you Mr. Moy. Oh, no. I came here before the law was passed. I came here about 39 years ago; but I went back and forth. About 39 years ago I first came to the United States-about 39 or 40 years ago. Mr. BUSIEK. Some of the gentlemen who have testified before this commission say that they estimate the number of Chinese in this country unlawfully at about 25 per cent to 33 per cent of the Chinese population. How do those figures agree with your ideas on the subject? Mr. Moy. Well, I don't know; but he has a record. I know only by guess; that is all. Mr. BUSIEK. Well, what is your guess? Mr. Moy. Well, I don't think-33 per cent? Mr. BUSIEK. It has been put as high as that. Mr. BUSIEK. Well, what is your judgment? Nobody has any absolute record, and we are taking people's judgment. Mr. Moy. I don't know. Well, I can say. Maybe he say it right; I don't know. Of course, I don't know much about it anyway, but I remember the time I lived in Buffalo and when they catch a lot of smuggling there. But after I leave Buffalo I hardly know much about it. Mr. BUSIEK. How are Chinese smuggled into this country now? the various methods? How do they come in? Mr. Moy. Well, when I stayed in Buffalo Mr. BUSIEK (interrupting). Well, how are they doing it now? Mr. Moy. In Boston? Mr. BUSIEK. Yes. What are Mr. Moy. Well, that is all I know-by stowaway. That is all I know about. Mr. BUSIEK. You don't think they bring some of them down from Canada in launches and boats and put them off on the Massachusetts shore and the Maine shore? Mr. Moy. I never heard of that. Mr. BUSIEK. I never heard of it? Mr. Moy. I never heard of it. Mr. BUSIEK. Ever hear of any of them being smuggled across the Canadian border? Mr. Moy. Well, I heard of them, and through the line, either through automobile or in a freight car; that is all I heard about it. Mr. BUSIEK. Do you consider it part of your duty to attempt to discover smuggling-that is, of your own accord-or do you simply confine yourself to interpreting? Mr. Moy. I confine myself to interpreting. Mr. BUSIEK. If you should hear about a case down there amongst the Chinese with whom you are acquainted, or whom you know Mr. Moy (interrupting). If I do that, I report. Mr. BUSIEK. You report? Mr. Moy. I report to the official always. Mr. BUSIEK. That is part of your duties? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Of course, the fact is well known that you are the Government interpreter? Mr. Moy. Oh, yes; but when you are a Government employee you hardly find out the things unless an outside man find out more about it than the Government employee. Mr. BUSIEK. Won't these people talk to you? Mr. Moy. No. Mr. BUSIEK. Don't you see many strange faces down in Chinatown? Mr. Moy. Oh, yes; sometimes. Mr. BUSIEK. Don't you make any investigation as to who these fellows are or where they are from? Mr. Moy. No; that is not my duty. I don't think that my duty. Mr. BUSIEK. Whose duty is it? Mr. Moy. It is the inspector's duty. I only attempt to interpret; that is all. That is my duty. That is what they provide me to do. I go in there and see any stranger-I not go in there and ask where they come from. I don't think that is part of my duty. Mr. BUSIEK. Then you say it is just your duty to interpret and not to make any investigation yourself? Mr. Moy. No. Mr. BUSIEK. That is what I understand by your answer? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. Would you incur any personal danger if you were to be active and were to attempt to make these investigations amongst your own race? Mr. Moy. Well, it would be kind of dangerous for myself. Mr. BUSIEK. You say it would be? Mr. Moy. It would be; yes. Mr. BUSIEK. You, of course, are in a better position than any other man to detect these things because of the fact that you mix with these Chinese. Now, you say you do not consider it part of your duty, and you say, furthermore, you might incur some peril to yourself if you did do that? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. Now, is it that you are afraid that you might be shot at or that your life might be taken if you became active? Mr. Moy. Maybe that; and if I go aroung among the Chinese, then I get myself in it when they think I look for trouble myself-might be in danger. You see I would not do that unless I would be inspector and they provide for me to do it, I would do it. Of course, if they want me to make investigations sometimes on the quiet-but not open investigation on my part. Mr. BUSIEK. Well, suppose the inspector should see a strange face at some laundry, and he would say to you, "Moy, I want you to find out about that fellow at that laundry." Does he ever do that? Mr. Moy. If he asked me I would do it; yes. Mr. BUSIEK. Well, does he ever instruct you to make such investigation? Mr. BUSIEK. Never has? Mr. Moy. No; never has. Mr. BUSIEK. Does he himself go down into this district and make investigations to see whether or not people are down there unlawfully? Mr. Moy. Not that I know of, unless he gets instructions. Mr. BUSIEK. Unless he gets instructions, he don't go out on his own hook? Mr. Moy. No. Mr. BUSIEK. Does Inspector Sullivan do it? Mr. Moy. Well, no. Mr. McCabe order either Mr. Sullivan or myself. We take his order. Mr. BUSIEK. The only time you ever make an inspection in the Chinese Mr. Mox (interrupting). Not for myself. Mr. BUSIEK. When you have got orders to go down there and make an investigation in regard to a particular person? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Do the Chinese inspectors mix in with the Chinese? That is, attempt to get acquainted? Mr. Moy. Not that I know of. Mr. BUSIEK. Do they ever go to Chinese restaurants and sit around and watch` the people? Mr. Moy. No. Of course, they might do it secretly, but not I know of. Mr. BUSIEK. Have you ever seen Inspector McCabe at any Chinese restaurant? Mr. Moy. No; unless he is with me-go on business, you know. Mr. BUSIEK. Have you ever eaten with Inspector McCabe at any restaurant? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. How often? Mr. Moy. Oh, well, perhaps I should say-perhaps once or twice a year, maybe. Mr. BUSIEK. Once or twice a year? What restaurant is that? Mr. Moy. Oh, sometimes I was with the inspector just once on Beach Street. Mr. BUSIEK. Do you know Charlie Holske? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. Have you ever had any dealings with him? Mr. Moy. No. Two years ago I bought some rice from him for the house to use, that is all I know about it. I did not deal with him for two or three years. I live in the same number now where his store is. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Is he a Chinaman? Mr. Mor. No. He deals in Chinese laundry supplies. Mr. BUSIEK. And you live at the same address? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. How many Chinese does Holske employ? Mr. Moy. He had a partner-Chinaman with him. Mr. BUSIEK. What is his partner's name? Mr. Moy, Moy On, or O-r-n, I think he spells it, or O-r-n-e; I think that is the way he spells it. Mr. BUSIEK. And how many people have Holske and Moy On got working for them? Mr. Moy. I saw two or three employed there. Mr. BUSIEK. That is sort of headquarters for the Chinese, isn't it--that place? Mr. Moy. No. They close Sunday. Mr. BUSIEK. They close Sunday? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. Did you do any work on this Cushing Academy matter? Mr. BUSIEK. You didn't make any investigation of that for McCabe or anybody? Mr. Mox. No. Well, we did investigate some students; but I don't know where they came from. Mr. BUSIEK. You don't know where they came from? Mr. Moy. No, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. And you don't know where they have gone to? Mr. Moy. No, sir; of course, I know a number when McCabe and Sullivan with me inquired about it; of course, I don't know if they ever attended that academy or not. Mr. BUSIEK. Now, Inspector McCabe says he found there were nine of them going to school in this district and working in laundries. Who helped him find those? Mr. Mor. I did. Mr. BUSIEK. Do you know where those nine are now? Mr. Moy. Well, I don't know. But a year ago one or two were attending the Quincy School. It may be they left there. I never trace where they are now. Mr. BUSIEK. And you say there are only about 900 Chinese in Boston, in your judgment? Mr. Moy. Yes. Mr. BUSIEK. You can recognize a Chinamen and remember his face and know him when you see him? Mr. Moy. Not all, unless I know him long acquaintance. Mr. BUSIEK. Well, you have been here now for five years? Mr. Moy. Yes, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. You ought to know almost every Chinese in Boston? Mr. Moy. No, sir. Mr. BUSIEK. You don't know them? Mr. Mox. No. Mr. BUSIER. You know them by sight, don't you? Mr. Moy. I know them by sight, yes; but I don't know who they are. |