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Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is a very strange situation.

Mr. BUSIEK. I think I have the record.

Mr. HURLEY. What I know about that, Mr. Commissioner, is all hearsay. I know nothing of my own personal knowledge. I know he was transferred, and I know he showed me a letter from Mr. Straus, then Secretary of the Department of Commerce and Labor.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That occurred in what year, Mr. Hurley?

Mr. HURLEY. Let me see.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Mr. Straus was there for how many years?
Mr. HURLEY. Straus was there four years.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Four years?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir. He was there under-
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Mr. Roosevelt?

Mr. HURLEY, Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Mr. Roosevelt was there seven years.

Mr. HURLEY. Well, he was there I think he was there in Roosevelt's last term.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Last term?

Mr. HURLEY. I think so. Mr. Busiek, can you enlighten me on the date?
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. When was this man transferred?

Mr. BUSIEK. In 1908.

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. February, 1908?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. No. He was transferred to New York in 1907.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Does the record show that he was found guilty of all those things at the time?

Mr. BUSIEK. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I wonder if it would not be a good thing to get Mr. Straus before the commission and find out if he was not transferredChairman WALSH. You will find there was somebody in the department that says this and that and hands it up to be signed.

Who was the head of the department at that time under Mr. Straus?

Mr. HURLEY. Do you mean of our department?

Chairman WALSH. Yes; of your department.

Mr. HURLEY. Sargent, I believe.

Chairman WALSH. And Mr. Larned was his first assistant?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir; Mr. Frank H. Larned.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Sargent was Commissioner General?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. That is all I have

Chairman WALSH, Are there any questions?

Commissioner DELANO. I want to ask one or two questions.
Mr. Hurley, you are under the civil service, are you not?
Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner DELANO. Mr. Weinstock told you what the duties of this commission are in regard to the importation of Chinese. For some reason or other the law does not mention Chinese; it mentions the smuggling of Asiatic labor. As I understand it there is no exclusion of any Asiatic excepting the Chinese, is there?

Mr. HURLEY. Oh, yes.

Commissioner DELANO. Is there?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes. It excludes Armenians, Turks, Kurds.

Mr. BUSIEK. Only on medical examination?

Mr. HURLEY. No, sir; all causes under section 2.

Commissioner DELANO. That is what I wanted to get at.

Mr. BUSIEK. By that you mean on a cause which would exclude any other alien?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Chairman WALSH. You do not exclude them because they are Asiatics? Mr. HURLEY. No.

Commissioner DELANO. There is no race of people who are excluded from this country because of their race or color except the Chinese, are there?

Mr. HURLEY. Why, the Japanese and laborers can not come under a proclamation of the President.

Commissioner DELANO. Japanese laborers?
Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner DELANO. That is very recent?

Mr. HURLEY. Why, it is a proclamation issued. I guess, by the President in Roosevelt's time. Whenever we find that they are coming to the detriment of labor conditions in this country.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. If a Turk or a Kurd, as you call them, should pass all other examinations, should pass the mental, moral, and physical examinations

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner DELANO. Could you still keep him out simply because he is a

Turk?

Mr. HURLEY. Not on the race alone.

Commissioner DELANO. Syrian or Armenian?

Mr. HURLEY. No, sir.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. But with a Chinaman, regardless of the fact that he passes the mental, moral, and physical examination, he may not be admitted?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner DELANO, Mr. Hurley, of course in your duties you get thousands, I suppose, of those western Asia nations where you would get one Chinaman, don't you?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes. We find quite a number of Armenians coming, quite a number of Syrians, quite a number of Turks and Kurds at the present time. Commissioner DELANO. You get three or four hundred on a shipload? Mr. HURLEY. I recently had a ship at Providence with 300, and 50 per cent were Asiaties.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. If I should come to this port as an Asiatic laborer, mentally, morally, and physically I pass the examination, but I am a laborer, how could you keep me out?

Mr. HURLEY. It would depend on the judgment of the inspector, because there is an agreement between the United States Government and the Empire of Japan.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. That is purely an agreement; it is a gentleman's agreement?

Mr. HURLEY. Of course the inspectors are to be governed by that. Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I am a Japanese laborer, but I stand all the tests, on what ground would you deport me?

Mr. HURLEY. In the first place, you would have to be supplied with a passport, which would state that you are entitled to come from Japan, and Japan says they do not issue passports to come to the United States to the detriment of labor conditions here.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Suppose as a Japanese laborer I had gone to England and came from England over here. As a Japanese laborer I do not need a passport to go to England.

Mr. HURLEY. They issue them. I had two men here recently with passports coming from England supposed to have been students in England, but instead of being Japs they were Chinamen.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. But if they go to study in England they are

students?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir; they were students.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. There is no other country outside of the United States that forbids the coming of Japanese laborers so far as I know.

I am a laborer in Japan.

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I go from Japan to England. I stop in England for some little time, and then I come from England to America.

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. I have no passport. How can you stop me from getting in?

Mr. HURLEY. If you left without a passport, it would be supposed you had a passport that was limited to some other country besides the United States, and you would be rejected on that ground.

Commissioner LENNON. There was a proclamation issued by President Roosevelt, I think, to that effect.

Mr. HURLEY. This is the President's proclamation issued March 4, 1913. It reads as follows

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Issued by whom?

Mr. HURLEY. By President Roosevelt.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. If it were February, 1913, it must have been Taft, because Wilson did not come in until March.

Mr. HURLEY. I think you will find this in the older editions by the-I will read from page 27:

"Whereas by the act entitled 'An act to regulate the immigration of aliens into the United States,' approved February 20, 1907, whenever the President is satisfied that passports issued by any foreign Government to its citizens to go to any country other than the United States, or to any insular possession of the United States, or to the Canal Zone, are being used for the purpose of enabling the holders to come to the continental territory of the United States, to the detriment of labor conditions therein, it is made the duty of the President to refuse to permit such citizens of the country issuing such passports to enter the continental territory of the United States from such country or from such insular possession or from the Canal Zone; and

"Whereas upon sufficient evidence produced before me by the Department of Commerce and Labor I am satisfied that passports issued by certain foreign Governments to their citizens or subjects who are laborers, skilled or unskilled, to proceed to countries or places other than the continental territory of the United States are being used for the purpose of enabling the holders thereof to come to the continental territory of the United States, to the detriment of labor conditions therein;

"I hereby order that such alien laborers, skilled or unskilled, be refused permission to enter the continental territory of the United States.

"It is further ordered that the Secretary of Commerce and Labor be, and he hereby is, directed to take, through the Bureau of Immigration and Naturalization, such measures and to make and enforce such rules and regulations as may be necessary to carry this order into effect."

Commissioner DELANO. That was issued by the Secretary of Commerce and

Labor?

Mr. HURLEY. This is the law and regulations. This is by the Department of Labor.

In speaking about going to England, I recently had a case where a Japanese tried to bring two students in. He was armed with Japanese passports. They were supposed to take up studies in England, and upon their arrival here we apprehended them, and it took me a long time to break them down, but they were, as a matter of fact, Chinamen.

Commissioner DELANO. Doesn't it require an expert to tell the difference between a Chinaman and a Jap?

Mr. HURLEY. I think so.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. You could test him quickly by his language with an interpreter?

Mr. HURLEY. This man was trying to get them in as Japs. They had learned enough to get by, but they could not converse freely in the Japanese language. Commissioner DELANO. But from their appearance it was difficult to detect

them?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes, sir. I would not want to call myself an expert in distinguishing between them.

Commissioner DELANO. Is it not a fact that there is more difference between the Chinese of different districts in China than there is between some of the Chinese and the Japanese?

Mr. HURLEY. In the Chinese?

Commissioner DELANO. There is more difference between a north Chinaman and a south Chinaman than there is between some of the Chinese race and the Japs?

Mr. HURLEY. Well, I have seen some Chinamen come from Korea that I couldn't distinguish whether they were Japs or not.

Mr. BUSIEK. Do you call Koreans Chinese?

Mr. HURLEY. They are included, I believe, as the Chinese race.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. They are?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. A Korean would not be permitted to land then? Mr. HURLEY. Chinese race.

Commissioner WEINSTOCK. Mongolians?

Mr. HURLEY. Yes,

Chairman WALSH. I think that is all, Mr. Hurley; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN A. McCABE.

Mr. BUSIEK. Your name in full, please?

Mr. MCCABE. John A. McCabe.

Mr. BUSIEK. And your position?

Mr. MCCABE. I have charge of the enforcement of the Chinese-exclusion law in the New England district, under the commissioner of immigration, Boston, Mass.

Mr. BUSIEK. How long have you been in that work?

Mr. MCCABE. Since February, 1903.

Mr. BUSIEK. Who assists you here in that work?

Mr. MCCABE, John G. Sullivan.

Mr. BUSIEK. Anyone else?

Mr. MCCABE. And I have a stenographer, Walter M. Perry; an interpreter, Schere F. Moy.

Mr. BUSIEK. How long has Moy been in the service?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, he has been in the service, I think, since 1903. First stationed at Buffalo, Philadelphia, Boston.

Mr. BUSIEK. Now, just explain the duties of your office, Mr. McCabe, in brief.

Mr. MCCABE. Well, what I would term the routine duties are the examination of Chinese applying for admission into the United States, and all those applying for return certificates. In other words, a certificate that will enable them to leave the United States and return to it either within a year or indefinitely. Also looking up those who are alleged to be here unlawfully, and also rumors of smuggling.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many cases will you have in a year of Chinese applying for admission in Boston?

Mr. MCCABE. Practically none at the port of Boston, but those who apply for admission at San Francisco, Seattle, and Vancouver, their witnesses, many of them, are in New England, and that work devolves upon us. In other words, some Chinaman living in Boston, or some other part of New England, is attempting to bring a son or his wife, and the applicant arrives at San Francisco, Seattle, or Vancouver and there is examined, and if his witnesses are located in any part of the New England district the record is sent to Boston for investigation.

Mr. BUSIEK. The record from the Pacific coast, containing the applicant's picture and so on?

Mr. MCCABE. Yes, sir; and a statement.

Mr. BUSIEK. And then you have to go out and verify it?

Mr. MCCABE. We examine whatever witnesses are necessary to establish the facts alleged.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many cases of that nature have you in a year's time?
Mr. MCCABE. Oh, I have the annual report here. Probably 100.

Mr. BUSIEK. That disposes of the work that you do for other offices, then; does it not?

Mr. MCCABE. Oh, no; our work, well, I should say that one-half of our work is in connection with other offices.

Mr. BUSIEK. One-half of your work?

Mr. MCCABE. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. What does the work that originates here and properly belongs to this office consist of?

Mr. McCABE. Of Chinese applying for return certificates.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many of these do you have in a year?

Mr. MCCABE, Anywhere from 300 to 350.

Mr. BUSIEK. About one a day?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, I would not-well, yes; practically.

It would not be one

a day. For instance, I would sit on say two or three a day. If they were straight returning labor cases we could examine five or six of them; but if it was a man proving nativity de novo it takes pretty near the time of one inspector from 1 o'clock in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many cases do you have of Chinese whom you claim are unlawfully in this country, and whom you seek to deport?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, I would not say that all the investigations that we have of suspected unlawful residents I would seek to deport. It depends upon the evidence.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many cases, we will put it that way?

Mr. MCCABE. Oh, perhaps 20 or 25 in a year.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many investigations would you say there are?
Mr. McCABE. Well, I might say 50 or 60.

Mr. BUSIEK. Where does your information come from concerning contraband Chinese?

Mr. MCCABE. Anonymous letters and different rumors we hear; and also when we are out on any investigation we are always asked, wherever they arewe always ask them for their papers, and if they haven't any we examine them and see whether or not the story they tell is consistent with their claims.

Mr. BUSIEK. What kind of a check have you on the Chinese population of your district? Do you know approximately how many Chinese there are here? Mr. MCCABE. I made a census in 1905 of the Chinese in New England, in the New England district, going personally to all the larger places, and in the small country towns having them reported by the police. In all large cities and in the larger towns we went and inspected. For instance, we wrote to the chief of police in all the large towns and cities in New England, and then to the postmaster of the small towns. The postmaster returned the names of the small towns and the chief of police in the larger cities and towns returned the names and numbers where Chinese were residing, and those we visited and attempted to interview the people we found working therein. We completed that census in 1905 with the exception of part of Hartford, Bridgeport, Conn., and one or two other small towns in Connecticut, and what we might term half of the city of Boston, which would include, for instance, Chinatown, and then there were two or three small towns. We had completed it when we were told to discontinue it.

Mr. BUSIEK. What did you find?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, our returns showed approximately about 3,050 Chinese in New England, and we estimated that for the district we had not taken, that there were probably about 1,100 or 1,200 more, making about

Mr. BUSIEK. How many are there in Boston?
Chairman WALSH. Making a total of what?
Mr. MCCABE. Probably a total of about 4,500.
Commissioner DELANO. In New England?

Commissioner LENNON. In Boston or New England?
Mr. MCCABE, In New England.

Commissioner WEIN STOCK. In 1905?

Mr. MCCABE. Between 4,500 and 5,000, I should say.
Commissioner WEINSTOCK. What year?

Mr. MCCABE, 1905.

Mr. BUSIEK. How many Chinese did you estimate to be in Boston at that time?

Mr. MCCABE, Well, I should say,that 3,000 of those were in the State of Massachusetts, and the greater majority of that 3,000 were in greater Boston. Mr. BUSIEK. What is included in Greater Boston?

Mr. MCCABE. That would be Cambridge, Somerville, Medford, Malden, Chelsea. Mr. BUSIEK. Charlestown?

Mr. MCCABE. Charlestown is part of Boston.

Mr. BUSIEK. You say there were about 3,000?

Mr. MCCABE. Yes.

Mr. BUSIEK. Has the number of Chinese in Boston since 1905 been fairly constant, or had it increased?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, I should say that it has increased, but other people say no. For instance, men that claim to do business with them say that it had in general decreased. I know that every place I go in the country towns, where 15 or 16 years ago there was only one laundry, now there are two, and in a place like oh, I should say for that 3,000 it might include the metropolitan district, and that would bring it out as far as Salem and Lynn for the 3,000. We will say, for instance, in Lynn they have several new Chinese restaurants, and, of course, it takes more men to run those than it does an ordinary laundry; so that while others claim that the Chinese population has decreased, I think it is just as much, if not more than it was in 1905.

Mr. BUSIEK, Where do those Chinese come from to take the places of those who leave and die?

Mr. MCCABE. Well, when you go back five or six years ago, the only person who could bring any of his relatives to the United States was what we called the so-called exempt classes, and they were entitled to bring their minor children; but within the past five or six years it has been decided that a man

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