mally any questions that I can answer, but we have here gentlemen who are much more capable than I, and who will present to you in argumentative form the reasons why you should have your kindly and rather generous interest here in Philadelphia. We do not come as beggars. I would not have you think that for a minute. You would be justified in saying to us, "Solve your own problems as a municipality."

But we want the Federal Government here in Philadelphia to manifest its interest in this park area, not only because of the money-and gentlemen, I hope you will believe this to be a true statement-not only because of the money, but because of what it would mean in -setting apart this area as an area of national and international importance. There is an appeal-there is a substantial benefit that would accrue to us, but Independence National Park would have a much greater significance than a city park here at this area. This building is no city building. Independence Hall is no city building. The Liberty Bell represents no local interest peculiarly. It represents, as Mr. McCracken and Mr. Ingersoll so aptly termed it, ideas and ideals. Max Lerner, a very distinguished writer, once wrote a book and I think it was called "The importance of ideas." I know I read it with a great deal of interest, and used it as the basis for a good many speeches. He demonstrated in that book that ideas are the most powerful things in the world. They are much more powerful than guns. The Nazi idea ruined Germany, gentlemen. The Fascist idea ruined Italy. It was an idea that was the foundation of America. It was that idea that is embodied in all these buildings. We have an idea-several ideas-in Independence Hall that have become fundamental, all that America stands for. Independence Hall speaks far more eloquently than any human being could interpret-an idea of liberty. That building speaks also for the idea of self government, for government under a written Constitution, for government under law, for a government of divided powers, for a government in which all races are equal, for worship where all creeds are equal. It is those ideas that are imperishable, gentlemen.

Now in closing may I just remind you what Benjamin Franklin said when leaving this building one day after the Constitution had been agreed upon. He was walking along the street, and he was asked what had been done-what we had-and you will recall that he replied, "A republic, if we can keep it." Gentlemen, what is more important today than that we make certain that we do keep this republic that the constitutional conference created? We ask you to have the Federal Government come in to Philadelphia, to take this interest in preserving and making safe these historic structures, and then we will follow along. I am certain that we will match any contribution of the Federal Government not only once but probably two or three times over. But the Federal Government has that organization that can give this movement its importance and prestige. I thank you for coming to Philadelphia, for listening to me so patiently. A great deal of what I have said has been so that the court reporter may have it upon the record. But I am perfectly willing to be held responsible for my estimate as to the cost of the project. [Applause.]

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Judge Lewis, for your very excellent and comprehensive portrayal of the situation.

I will now ask you to call your mitness.

Judge LEWIS. I should like to call first Dr. Fitz Kimball, director of the Pennsylvania Museum of Arts. It might interest you gentlemen to know that Dr. Kimball has written many books, two of these outstanding books being called, one, American Architecture, and the other Thomas Jefferson Architecture. Dr. Kimball has long ago made his contribution to Philadelphia, something that can never be repaid. While you are here, you should go into the Pennsylvania Museum and see what he has created during the past few years, together with Stogley Stokes, who will speak later. But I now have the pleasure of calling upon Dr. Kimball.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, we are glad to have you here. Will you be seated or will you stand?

STATEMENT OF DR. FITZ KIMBALL

Dr. KIMBALL. Chairman Peterson and gentlemen, I will speak very briefly, and will attempt to give you my point of view, not only as a citizen of Philadelphia; but as a member of the advisory board of the National Park Service.

The CHAIRMAN. I was going to mention that. We are proud of you and of your work.

Dr. KIMBALL. I am down in Washington very frequently on such matters, because propositions come up in great numbers, and there are several score of bills introduced to designate such a place as this or that, and the most important feature of the National Park Service and the function of a member of the advisory board is usually to say "No" and we do say "No" to proposition after proposition. All over the country, in any number of Podunk Corners, there is always a house where George Washington slept, and they always want it to have some sort of recognition. Of course, it cannot be done for so great a number of places, but the difference in this case is the importance of the buildings concerned. It is really true that the Park Service, through its former Director and present Director, and the Secretary of the Interior, did not rest until they got Independence Hall designated as a national historic spot, in the act passed with its cooperative feature with the city of Philadelphia. What was the use of having a list of historic spots that did not include Independence Hall? That has been taken care of. But the surroundings are unworthy. That is the first problem. The city has preserved Independence Square, and the city preserved Washington Square. But the character of the immediately contiguous, privately owned properties is very unworthy. In talking about this proposed bill, I said that if the proponents wanted to interest the Federal Government, let them insist very strongly that it is necessary for the protection of the district that surrounds these national shrines. This is not in any sense. a real-estate proposition.

There are other blocks that are not even mentioned here. That is a problem for the city of Philadelphia, but the important aspect and the important concern is for these buildings which are confined here to a space of something like five blocks to the north and to the east. That is what will concern the Commission, if you recommend it, and

I trust you will. In that area to the east you have other buildings besides the Independence Hall group that are also perfectly unique. There is Carpenter's Hall, purely private in its ownership, formerly endangered by a substantial amount of neighborhood properties but now surrounded today by parking lots. The Carpenters Company deserve every credit for having preserved it intact, and then we have the first bank of the United States, which belongs to the city of Philadelphia, as well as the second bank, over which Jackson had a momentous battle that is down here-and the other building that was only recently acquired, 3 or 4 years ago. It had belonged to the Treasury after it ceased to be the customhouse, and there were private bids being made for the acquisition of that building, none of which was satisfactory, and it was just about to be demolished when the Park. Service succeeded in getting an executive order for transfer to the Service, and now it is preserved and it has been restored at no expense to the Government under the work relief program. No special appropriation was required, and you see that beautiful and historic building rescued to form a part of this project. I trust that you can see your way clear to recommend the Commission to pursue the matter to an ultimate end. It is a project worthy of your support.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you.

Judge LEWIS. I am sorry that I raised my voice. In listening to Dr. Kimball, I found that it was not necessary at all.

Gentlemen, may I now present to you the president of the Pennsylvania Museum of Art, and in a great many other ways an important citizen of Philadelphia, a manufacturer, Mr. J. Stogley Stokes.

The CHAIRMAN. We are glad to have you, sir. You may stand or take a seat, whichever you like.

STATEMENT OF J. STOGLEY STOKES

Mr. J. STOGLEY STOKES. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I should like to add, in my humble way, to the many eloquent speeches you gentlemen have heard. I think the strong point of this thing is the idea side. Judge Lewis referred to it, Mr. Ingersoll referred to it this noon, and I think it was Goethe who said, "The strongest thing in the world is an idea whose hour has struck." We have a war-sick world, a world which needs freedom, the kind of freedom that was born in these shrines of America, and they were born right here, in Independence Hall, and in this very building where we are now. Of course these slum districts to the north should bet torn down. Of course these scared buildings should be preserved and beautified. The hour has struck. [Applause.]

Judge LEWIS. Dr. William E. Lingelbach, president of the Philadelphia Philosophical Society, had to go out. I am sure if he had known that Mr. Stokes was going to be so brief, that he would have remained. However, we have here in the person of Dr. Charles F. Jenkins the most prominent member of the Historical Society of Pennsylvania. He is the president of that organization, and likewise the president of the Buckhill Falls Co. I am sure that some of you have been to Buckhill Falls, and know of that wonderful hotel and cottage community. Dr. Jenkins has operated that enterprise to the delight of many visitors. He leads a busy and active

life, but he is never too busy so that he cannot speak for Philadelphia. Dr. Jenkins.

STATEMENT OF DR. CHARLES F. JENKINS

Dr. CHARLES F. JENKINS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, Judge Lewis and citizens, I am sure that at a time like this your thoughts and interests, as are mine, are more with the men who were Federal Congressmen before you in this very hall so many years ago. This hall was the place where the Congress met. The Senate met upstairs, and if you should climb up those stairs, you will realize what an effort it must have been for some of those rather heavy and obese Congressmen or Senators of those days, and you will realize what a hard time they had to get up there. It was much harder than coming down. Right here where Mr. Peterson is sitting is where General Washington bade farewell to Congress at the end of his term. The boards are still here on the floor on which he sat. A very interesting fact is that when he retired from office he was 66 years of age. When his successor, John Adams, retired from office, he was 66 years of age. He served 4 years. Thomas Jefferson served 8 years and he was 66 years of age. He was followed by James Madison, who served 8 yeasr and who in turn was 66 years of age when he retired. He was followed by James Monroe for 8 years, and when he retired he was 66 years of age. John Quincy Adams served for 4 years and he was 66. So it would seem that the number 66 had some sort of great significance, until that fiery Democrat from Kentucky came along, Andrew Jackson, and he broke the record. There is a very interesting parallel, too, in the lives of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. They both voted for and signed the Declaration of Independence. They were both Ambassadors, Adams to England and Jefferson to France. They were both Vice Presidents of the United States and they both became President of the United States and they lived exactly 50 years after they signed the Declaration of Independence and died on July 4, 1826. I think that is a coincidence that is worth putting in the record here.

I would like with your permission, although you get very tired of roll calls in Congres, but I should like to call the roll of those 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence. I do not know whether I can do it, because sometimes I fail. However, I will start out and try. They signed geographically. They started with New Hampshire and came down and ended up with Georgia. There were 13 colonies. Three men from New Hampshire, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton.

Four men from Massachusetts, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry; two men from Rhode Island, Stephen Hopkins and William Ellery; four from Connecticut, Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntingdon, William Williams, and Oliver Wolcott; four from New York, William Floyd, Phillip Livingston. Francis Lewis, and Lewis Morris; five from New Jersey, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, and Abraham Clerk; nine from Pennsylvania, Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, and George Ross; three from Delaware, Caesar

Rodney, George Read, and Thomas McKean; four from Maryland, Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, and Charles Carroll; seven from Virginia, George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, and Carter Braxton; three from North Carolina, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, and John Penn; four from South Carolina, Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., and Arthur Middleton; three from Georgia, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, and George Walton. [Applause.]

I do not want to take more of your time than I should, but I will trespass on your patience a little more to give you a few facts in which possibly you may be interested. There were nine men who signed the Declaration of Independence who had no business to do it. The Declaration of Independence was dated July 4 and was not signed until August 2, but nine men between the two dates were sent to Congress and they wanted to sign. Matthew Thornton of New Hampshire did not get here until the 8th of November, and he wanted to go down to fame, so he put his name down in the corner. You will find it stuck down in the right-hand southeast corner. The five from Pennsylvania were not in Congress at that time, but they appended their names to the document, whereas the men who were in Congress, 18, I think, who could have signed and did not get to do it, missed their greatest opportunity to have their names handed down to posterity. If there is any distinction in the United States, it is a man who signed the Declaration of Independence, even more so than the Constitution. Of all of those men, Charles Carroll lived the longest. He died-let's see-about 1830. I do not know the exact date, but he laid the cornerstone of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad.

Now Francis Lewis was born in Wales. James Smith and Matthew Thornton were born in Scotland. John Witherspoon was born in Scotland and James Wilson, Robert Morris, and Button Gwinnett were born in England. Those from Virginia, Rhode Island, Maryland, Massachusetts and South Carolina were natives of their own States. I expect very much the same proportion is in Congress today, as were the professions to which these men belonged. Twenty-four of the fifty-six were lawyers. Thirteen were farmers, nine were merchants, five physicians, two the mechanical arts, one was a clergyman, one a mariner and one a surveyor. All of them sat together over in the next building, and put their names to this immortal document. In their religious faiths, thirty-five of them were Episcopalians, twelve Congregationalists, five Presbyterians, and two were Quakers. One was a Baptist, and one was a Catholic. That was Charles Carroll of Carrollton. The three richest men of the United States who signed the Declaration of Independence were Robert Morris, Charles Carroll, and John Hancock, and they risked not only their fortunes but their necks when they signed the Declaration of Independence.

Twenty-seven of them were graduates of colleges and universities, from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Williams, and the University of Pennsylvania. One-half of them had visited Europe, so that they knew conditions over there. Those were the men who trod these boards, and who used this place to formulate the most momentous events in human history. You gentlemen, as Members of Congress, I should think would want to have these facts before you when you consider this bill,