certain event happening. As and when that event happens in fact so the liability

accrues.

8. You cannot object?-We have në“. right to object.

[Continued.

9. You cannot object when the time is so very near?-We could only contemplate doing that if we had control over the factories, which of course we have not got.

Chairman.

10. Sir Malcolm, paragraph 5 of your Report deals with this? (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) I have been given the usual list of remissions of duty which come under the heading of extra-statutory remissions. As I say, in my Report, the whole amount of duty so remitted was approximately £600, and it covered three cases which seem clearly to be cases in which, though the duty might be technically leviable, it was grossly inequitable to the taxpayer to levy it.

11. And in any event, it is an infinitesimal fraction of the whole revenue. Have the Treasury any remark to make upon this? (Mr. Phillips.) No, Sir.

12. Now we come to the Account itself which is on page 12.

Mr. Briggs.

13. With regard to Item B on page 12 the note says that there were savings due to the temporary non-filling of vacancies. Are these posts going to be left vacant? (Mr. Cunningham.) We

hope not. The fact was that in this year we were waiting for the filling of vacancies due to wastage in three different grades the clerks, the officers of Customs and Excise, and the water guard. Recruitment was almost at a standstill.

14. You require to fill these vacancies then, do you?-Eventually.

15. Taking Item C, it says in the note that there was a saving due to a certain method of delivery during one quarter. Is that method to be continued permanently? No, it is not so satisfactory. The method of a postal delivery instead of a personal delivery of the Old Age

Pension Books does not keep such a good control over the Old Age Pensioner as the personal visit. The personal visit to the Old Age Pensioner is considered a great safeguard against any concealment of an alteration of means in the interval between one visit and the other.

16. There is considerable economy in the other method?-Yes, in that way, but not in efficiency.

17. With regard to Item 10 on page 14, "Proceeds of Customs sales (seizures, &c.)," what is the method of disposing of those goods?-Mainly by auction sale. 18. Advertised? Yes, advertised.

Major Salmon.

19. With reference to Item B on page 12, " Salaries, Wages and Allowances," there has been a saving of £62,000 by the non-filling of vacancies, but there has been an off-set by increased expenditure on overtime of £11,000. Is it fair to assume that the number of vacancies that could be filled should only be the difference between the overtime and the The amount that is proposed?—No. overtime was special work mainly connected with the imposition of new taxes in that particular year.

20. £62,000 on the total wage bill is quite a fair percentage? It is a fair percentage.

21. If the work could be carried out, as apparently it was carried out, satisfactorily, with a little overtime, in comparison it seems that they used rather a big hand in saying the number of staff that you should have generally in a Department? It means more than that. It means that concurrently with the existence of these vacancies we are also giving up safeguards which we should

28 February, 1928.]

consider necessary in normal times. I have instanced one just now about the visits to Old Age Pensioners. That method, of course, saves time at the moment, but we should not like to continue it as a permanent arrangement.

22. Would you really mean that if you carried out that work in the way you had done it in the past the salaries under Item B would have gone up automatically? Certainly they would.

23. Because you have a larger personnel? If we had the men and put in those safeguards we should certainly have spent more under Item B.

24. The total number of personnel in your Department has practically been fixed for a long time?-It has varied round about 11,400 to 11,600.

25. You have not introduced any new methods in the office whereby there can be any economy under that head?-Do you mean in the way of labour saving devices?

26. Yes. We have introduced them whenever possible. In my own office we have introduced machines and mechanical working very considerably.

27. Have you pro tanto reduced staff? -The saving in my staff would be perhaps 12 or 20 clerks-which is not very much in a total like this.

28. Is not the same thing applicable to other Departments? Could you not introduce saving device machines there? -To a very limited extent. You can only introduce them in the big offices.

29. As a fact are they introduced into the big offices?-They have been introduced in the big London long room, and I believe they have in Liverpool; but generally speaking our officers work, I will not say alone, but in small groups where mechanical contrivances would, I think, be uneconomical.

30. As a matter of fact do you have periodical reviews as to the character of work and the number of staff necessary for that work?-We have Inspectors constantly travelling round and inspecting the various offices all over the country.

31. But they do not set out with the idea of seeing if they can suggest a simplification of method?-That is certainly one of the ideas which they have in their mind.

32. Would they have the advantage of seeing offices where there has been simplification of method, so that they

65589

[Continued.

can utilise that experience in the other offices they visit?-I think so. They know the way things are trending in the way of office machinery-calculating machines, sorting machines, and so forth. Calculating machines are the main

things one could use in the big offices. Sorting machines we have in our statistical office, but there is no place for them in the local offices.

33. Does the chief in your Establishment Department, in addition to the Inspectors, go into the question of the staffing of the various offices?-Fully and exhaustively.

34. It occurs to one that when you have a staff of 11,000 there should be a possibility of saving a small percentage in that number?-I can assure you the possibilities of saving are examined over and over again all the year round.

course

outlying

38. I wanted to know how this staff of 11,000 were distributed locally?—At the large ports of we have the Custom House Similarly in the large inland towns we have the Excise Office. Very often some of the Officers are quartered in places about a town convenient for their work. In the smaller towns there is perhaps a single Officer, or there may be two or three. They may have a public office provided for them, or they may provide a room in their own house as an office in consideration of a small allowance.

39. What is the total of those offices? -I could not tell you offhand.

40. You do not know how this staff of 11,000 is distributed?-I could not tell you.

41. Has the question of the concentration of offices been considered?-By the Office of Works continually I should sav

Α

28 February, 1928.]

con

42. By your Department?-I should say so, because it is much more venient to have the staff closely concentrated.

43. That would have some bearing on the question put by Major Salmon as to labour saving devices. If you could concentrate your offices you could obviously introduce better devices, and I should have thought reduce staff. It was really Item D, referring to removal expenses and lodging allowances which called my attention to the fact. I just wanted to know to what extent these allowances and expenses were required? -Lodging allowances, if I may say so, are a different matter altogether. Those allowances come in where we transfer an officer from one part of the country to another. We may move him, say, from Brighton to Portsmouth.

44. You do not allow him a lodging allowance if he is permanently stationed in a town? No, he has to find his own home. But if he is moved, for instance from Brighton to Portsmouth, and cannot find a house at once in Portsmouth, we allow him something in the way of lodging allowance by way of compensating him for the extra expense.

45. Because, presumably, he is maintaining a home in the old town?-Or, at any rate, he has to pay rather more heavily for temporary lodgings in the new place.

46. I see that these removal expenses and lodging allowances were less than anticipated, according to the note?Yes, the reason is that houses are more easy to obtain.

47. Do you consider that matter when you are moving an officer from one place to another?-Primarily it is the interest of the service.

Mr. Roy Wilson.

48. Do you move officers not because of seniority but because you think an officer has been too long at one place? -That, of course, is rather outside my province as Accounting Officer.

49. With regard to the adding machines and labour saving devices. There are a vast number of those machines of all classes on the market now doing various operations in counting, and that sort of thing. Are you satisfied that you are in touch with all the various machines which come on the market for all the varying purposes for

[Continued.

which they are designed?--I am. I have sent all my Accountants to look at the Business Efficiency Exhibition this week, and the Treasury representative is, of course, closely in touch with every new device.

Sir Robert Hamilton.

50. Have the tobacco stalks that were abandoned on drawback any commercial value? Very little indeed. The market has slumped. At one time they sold quite a lot of this in Poland to make Polish cigarettes, but the Poles soon got tired of it, I think.

51. I see you have a very considerable item here for getting rid of them?-We have to get rid of them if we cannot sell them.

52. Do you burn them?-We have to find people to burn them, or bury them in the sands of the sea, or something of that sort.

53. Was the Polish market the only market for them? I thought they were used for agricultural purposes?-To some extent, but not enough to get them off our hands at the rate they come on our hands.

Mr. Ellis.

54. With reference to the new machines for counting and that sort of thing, you have a definite economical limit in a room where you are employing a certain number of clerks below which it is not economical to put in a machine at all however much it might be worth? -That is so.

55. That, I understand, is a point you have taken all the way through?-Yes. 56. Directly а room becomes large enough to consider that, it is considered at once, I suppose?—Yes.

57. May I ask you about the note to Item C. referring to savings due to the substitution of a postal for a personal delivery of Old Age Pension Order Books during one quarter? Have you taken into account the cost of your stamps in saying there is a saving there of £3,000? -It means that the Post Office did a little more work for us, and I expect that appears somewhere in their statement.

58. It is not in that £3,000?—No, it is not in that £3,000.

59. What was the idea, because surely from the very beginning it was rather dangerous to trust to postal delivery, was it not, quite apart from the cost?That is what we felt at the very outset

28 February, 1928.]

[Continued.

We

of the Old Age Pension scheme. felt that for every reason the personal delivery was much to be preferred, but this postal delivery has been forced upon us by stress of circumstances at certain times when our officers have been suddenly submerged in a mass of new work.

60. Do you mean in the Strike period? -No, I was thinking of the Betting Duty.

61. Then it was not, if one may use the expression, an outside economic urge which made you try to do something a little cheaper?—No. As I have tried to indicate, we do not look upon this as an ideal method of delivery.

62. I hope in the future you are going

Sir Assheton Pownall.

63. With regard to the note to Item M. which says, "The saving is mainly in respect of rewards for seizures," can you give me some idea of the amount paid by way of reward for seizures?—I am afraid I cannot give you that offhand,

64. You find the policy of giving rewards effective with regard to contraband? It is certainly effective when the information comes from outside sources, and also, of course, we give some rewards to our own officers for meritorious discoveries.

Chairman.

-Generally speaking, the tendency is for the discovery of fraud by mis-statement of means to decrease, largely because of the effect of the Contributory Insurance scheme under which means are not taken into account.

72. How many people would be affected in these sums of money shown on page 406?-I should not like to say. I could find out for you, I expect.* (Sir Malcolm Ramsay.) Last year £6,587 was charged under this head against £4,208 in the present Account.

73. You do not know how many people are concerned?-I should think there would not be over £100 in any case unless it was very exceptional. (Mr. Cunningham.) £100 would be a big case.

Mr. Ellis.

74. They are mostly £2 or £3?-These small debts of 10s. Od. a week have an extraordinary way of accumulating. If they go on without discovery they accumulate astonishingly.

Mr. Gillett.

75. Most of them would be something like £30 or £40?—Yes.

"The sum of £2,238 referred to at the bottom of page 406 of the Accounts, is in respect of 205 cases of fraud; the amounts involved varied between a few shillings and £103. In the previous year (1925-6) there were 206 similar cases inv lving £3,813, and the largest amount was £165.-E.C.C.

A 2

28 February, 1928.]

Sir John Marriott.

76. Why were the expenses of the Pension Committees so much larger than was anticipated? Of course we can understand the pensions, but why was it necessary to have a supplementary of £3,000, and an expenditure of £3,000 in excess of that for Pension Committees ?— The only reason I can give is that we looked forward to a decrease in these expenses owing to the operation of the Old Age Contributory Pensions Act, and we allowed accordingly; but for some reason it just did not happen so. The pensions did not fall off as we expected them to do, and we had to pay out more than we expected in the way of Committees' expenses.

77. But does not the note to Item A say that there was a temporary falling off?—The falling off in the March quarter would be reflected in the Committees' fees in the following quarter.

78. You mean there is no connection between note A. and note B. ?-That is so. The quarter in which the death rate and the small number of pensions occurred would be reflected in the June quarter as regards Committees' expenses.

79. The June quarter does not come into the Account?-That is so.

[Continued.

by the various Committees throughout the country?-Not by the Committees throughout the country. I beg your pardon, I thought you were speaking of the administration of the Old Age Pension Vote as a whole.

86. Take it as a whole first. That is £500,000?--Yes.

87. That is administered where?From the headquarters in London, from the Custom House in London, the Executive Officers being the Customs and Excise Officers throughout the country.

88. In addition to that there is an expenditure by the Pensions Committees of, roughly, £51,000?-Yes. That consists of fees to the Clerk according to the population of his district and the number of claims dealt with, with further expenses where necessary for the hire of rooms, stationery, and so forth. They are exclusively expenses incurred by the Local Committees.

89. Is it fair to say that of the £500,000 that your Department take credit for, a large part of the expense would go on even if you did not have Old to Age Pensions deal with?Obviously, we have a bigger staff than we need have if we did not do Old Age Pensions, but what the difference would be I should not like to say at a guess.

90. As a matter of fact, during the last five years has the total number of Old Age Pensioners decreased or increased?--The number has increased.

91. To what extent do you think?Taking the recent years, beginning with the year 1924, on the 1st January in that year the total number was 921,000, in 1925 997,000, in 1926 1,058,000, and in 1927 1,064,000.

92. Since 1924, have you more officers dealing with this work?-The officers ex-head-quarters staff numbered 10,461 in April, 1924, including male and female, and 10,300 in April, 1927.

93. So that the more the Old Age Pensions the less the number of officers required? An analysis would be a complicated matter.

94. I understand that. The point that struck me, however, was this. Really, the work is part and parcel of the ordinary work; it is spread over?-Yes, that is so. There are a certain number of women pension officers who do nothing else but Old Age Pension work.