Chairman.] There are no Petitions against the Bill, I understand, Mr. Bidder?

Mr. Bidder.] There are no Petitions against the Bill. The Bill before you is the Crown Lands (No. 2) Bill, and though it looks somewhat forbidding in length its purposes are extremely simple. The Commissioners of Crown Lands owe their powers primarily to the Crown Lands Act, 1829, by which all the lands of the Crown were placed in the hands of the Commissioners of Woods, Forests and Land Revenues. In 1851 the Royal Parks and Gardens were taken away from the Commissioners and placed in the hands of the Commissioners of Works. In 1860 the foreshore was taken away from them and placed in the hands of the Board of Trade. The Commissioners at the present moment consist of two-the Minister of Agriculture as an Honorary Commissioner, and one other Commissioner. There were two other Commissioners, but on the death of one in 1912 no other was appointed. The estates of the Crown in various forests were transferred from the Commissioners under the Forestry (Transfer of Woods) Act, 1923, and by an Order of 1924 the Commissioners of Woods came to be called the Commissioners of Crown Lands. I have gone through those facts very briefly, as some of the terms occur in the Bill.

I do not think you will wish me to go into the history of the revenues of

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the Crown. I could begin at the Conquest, but I think it will be enough to say that the whole of the land revenues of the Crown, with the exceptions I have mentioned, are now under the management of the Commissioners. The revenues amount to a sum of £1,400,000 a year. Those revenues, with the other revenues of the Crown, are surrendered at the beginning of each Reign by the new Monarch, and were so surrendered by King George in the first year of his Reign.

As to the objects of the Bill, they are divided into three classes. The greater part of the Bill is merely providing certain machinery for the Commissioners for leasing, selling, and in other respects which you will find laid down in the Settled Land Act, 1925, so far as in respect of settled land, and also in the Universities and Colleges Estates Act in respect of persons in the position of trustees of those estates-which of course is very closely analogous to the position of the Commissioners of Crown Lands. Transcripts from the Settled Land Act, 1925, occupy the greater part of the Bill.

The first clause incorporates the Commissioners. That is in order to deal with the difficulties that arise from the fact that at present they are Commissioners in their personal capacity, and therefore on the death of a Commissioner his personal representatives come into the question. At present there is no corporate

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body which goes on in possession of the powers of the Commissioners.

Chairman.] Who did you say was the other Commissioner besides the Minister of Agriculture?

Mr. Bidder.] I said there was one other Commissioner.

Chairman.] What is his name?

Mr. Bidder.] Mr. Arthur Stretton Gaye. He is present. Those are two sorts of clauses I have to deal with. Then there are a few miscellaneous clauses, and after that there come two other clauses which form the only reason why this Committee has had to be constituted, and why this Bill is before you now. I refer to Clauses 19 and 20 dealing with certain sums which the Commissioners hold as trustees, and which it is proposed to transfer to other bodies. In one of the cases it is proposed to alter slightly the trust under which the sums are held, and which therefore may be said to affect private rights, and consequently necessitates this Bill coming before this Hybrid Committee. I understand, Sir, you wish me shortly to go through the clauses one by one, and if so, I will proceed to do so.

Chairman.] I assume that you have to prove to our satisfaction the Preamble of the Bill. Technically there is not

one.

Mr. Bidder.] The Bill has no Preamble at all.

Chairman.] And then you have to discuss the clauses. What evidence do you propose to put before us?

Mr. Bidder.] I have Mr. Stocks here, the Solicitor to the Commissioners, who will give you any information that you require on the subject of the Bill. Perhaps it will be convenient if I put him in the box.

Chairman.] Perhaps you had better for our benefit just tell us shortly what are the powers you are asking in these clauses. You have already told us with regard to the first clause. You simply make a corporation and give the Commissioners a sole and perpetual succession, that is all?

Mr. Bidder.] Yes, Clause 1 incorporates. the Commissioners, instead of leaving them in their office in their personal capacity. There is nothing else in that clause, except the subsidiary provisions necessary to effect that. Clause 2 is a transcript from the Settled Land Act,

[Continued.

1925. It confers powers on the Commissioners to "sell any Crown land or any easement, right or privilege of any kind over or in relation to Crown land." Then there are particular powers with regard to selling the seignory of any freehold land within a manor, and also with regard to mining rights. The object of that is merely to simplify procedure. The Crown Land Acts, 1829 to 1913, enable the Commissioners to sell, but this Bill provides a more convenient procedure.

Chairman.] Shortly, may I put it that these powers are mainly old powers brought up to date. That is really what it comes to.

Mr. Bidder.] Yes. It is a simplification of procedure, such as has been going on in many Government Departments.

Chairman.] Many of them are in the subsequent clauses which will be explained to the Committee.

Mr. Bidder.] Yes, I will draw your attention to them as we go along. Clause 3 is again a transcript from the Settled Land Act, 1925, and it contains a provision enabling the Commissioners to sell in consideration of a rent charge. The Commissioners had certain powers given them by the Small Holding Colonies Act, 1916, those powers enabling them to sell land to the then Board of Agriculture, but those powers have expired. This power in respect to the rent charge is a new power, but otherwise this clause merely gives us a more convenient procedure.

Clause 4 is in respect of the term for which the Commissioners may lease Crown lands for any purpose whatever. In this case we ask for rather less powers than the Settled Land Act, 1925, provides, though we are asking for rather more powers than those which the Commissioners at present hold. The present powers of the Commissioners are that they can grant leases (a) for 31 years generally; (b) for 60 years of foreshore comprised in a Mussel or Fishery Order; (c) for 63 year of mines and minerals except mines of gold or silver; (d) for 99 years of land, the greater part of whose annual value consists of buildings or of lands or foreshore for building purposes, or of land for gardens and other appurtenances to buildings let on a lease for 99 years. Those are our present powers. The powers we ask for now are, to be allowed to lease for any purpose whatever, whether involving