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DRAFT SPECIAL REPORT, proposed by the Chairman, brought up. and read the first time as follows:

1. Your Committee regret that they are unable to report the Architects (Registration) Bill to the House.

2. Your Committee have met on 14 days and have examined 20 witnesses and have also considered Memoranda put in by various bodies and persons. Amongst the witnesses were representatives from the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Architectural Association, London, the Institution of Civil Engineers, the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers, the County Councils Association, the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors, the Institute of Builders, the Faculty of Architects and Surveyors, the Incorporated Society of Auctioneers and Landed Property Agents, the Association of Consulting Engineers and the Parliamentary Committee of the Co-operative Congress; other individual witnesses were also heard. Your Committee have agreed to report the whole of this evidence to the House.

3. In view of the fact that the Clauses of the Bill had been amended by the Committee in the light of the evidence submitted and had been approved by them, and that the final vote not to report the Bill to the House did not represent the views of the Committee as a whole, your Committee hope that an early opportunity will be given to the House next Session of considering a Bill framed on the lines of this Bill as amended.

Question, That the Draft Special Report proposed by the Chairman be read a second time paragraph by paragraph, put, and agreed to.

Paragraphs 1 and 2 agreed to.

Paragraph 3:

Amendments made in line 3 by leaving out the words "and had been approved by them "-(Captain Wallace)—and after the word "vote by inserting the words "of five to four."-(Captain Wallace.) Another amendment made in line 4 by leaving out the word "did " and inserting the word "does "-(Captain Wallace)—instead thereof. Another amendment proposed in line 4 to leave out the word "not."(Mr. Lindley.)

Question put, That the word " not " stand part of the paragraph.

The Committee divided:

Ayes (5).

Mr. Gardner.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.
Colonel Moore.

Captain Wallace.

Dr. Watts.

Noes (2).

Mr. Lindley.
Mr. Tasker.

DA

Sir Murdoch Macdonald and Sir Frederick Rice were present but did not vote.

Another amendment made in line 5, after the word "Committee," by inserting the words "of eleven Members."-(Captain Wallace.)

Another Amendment proposed in line 5, to leave out all the words from the word "whole " to the end of the paragraph.-(Mr. Lindley.) Question put, that the words proposed to be left out down to the word "a" in line 7 stand part of the paragraph.

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Another amendment proposed in line 7, after the word a to insert the word "similar."-(Sir Frederick Rice.)

Question, That the word "similar" be there inserted, put and negatived.

Another amendment proposed in line 7 to leave out all the words from the word "Bill" to the end of the paragraph.-(Mr. Lindley.)

Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph.

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Question put, that paragraph 3 as amended stand part of the Special Report.

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Question put, That this Special Report, as amended, be the Special Report of the Committee to the House.

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Sir Frederick Rice was present, but did not vote.

Ordered: To Report together with the Minutes of Evidence.

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Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I., called and examined.

Chairman.

1. Major Harry Barnes, I understand that you have come here to give evidence ΟΙ behalf of the Royal Institute of British Architects? That is so.

2. And that you are Chairman of the Registration Committee?-That is so.

3. And that you have given us a précis of the evidence which you propose to give before our Committee ?-That is so.

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4. I do not propose to ask to through the whole of that précis, but we should like to know whether or not there are any additions that you would like to make, and if in making those additions you wish to emphasise any points in the précis, should be very pleased to hear them. Before going into the evidence, I would like to ask you if you remember that during the Second Reading of the Bill, there was an opinion expressed, a rather strong opinion, that the Royal Institute of British Architects should not press the word "Architect " but should be content with the words "Registered Architect." That was advanced by one Member of the House of Commons. who was rather strong on the point, but it was acquiesced in and pressed by the Home Secretary. Now it might perhaps interest all our witnesses to know at once, whether or not the Royal Institute of

*See Appendix 1.

British Architects is prepared to accept the term 66 Registered Architect" in the place of the term "Architect." Can you give us any statement on that point? -Mr. Chairman, the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects realised that at some stage or other in these proceedings they would have to implement the undertaking that was given on their behalf in the House during the Second Reading by an honourable Member, who told the House that the promoters of the Bill were willing to delete Clause 12 altogether, which refers to the recovery of charges. I am reading from Hansard at Column 2496. "They are also willing to consider the re-casting of Clause 11 with a view to meeting the objections which have been raised by the Civil Engineers. The promoters, however, do not wish to bind themselves at the present stage in regard to the use of the word 'Register' in connection with Architects, but they are quite willing to re-cast this Clause and introduce some qualifying words and perhaps that will meet the objections which have been raised." Sir, ne were not quite sure as to what would be the proper stage in these proceedings for us to deal with this matter, but you have indicated to us, and if I may be permitted to say so, I entirely agree, that it will be a great convenience not only to this Committee but also to other witnesses cn the Bill, if the position of the Institute

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Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F S.I.

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is at once stated. I am authorised by the Institute to say that with considerable, and I think it will be agreed, natural reluctance, they are willing to assent to qualify the term "Architect," if in the opinion of this Committee it is necessary to do so, or proper to do so, and to use a qualifying term in respect of the word "Architect." A number of words have been considered and have been suggested to the Institute from various Members of that body, words such as "Authorised," "Recognised," Statutory" and others, but I think I am voicing the general opinion of the Members, that when all these words are considered, it is impossible probably to find a word to which less objection would be taken, than the word Registered." The position, therefore, is that if in the opinion of the Committee it is proper to qualify the term "Architect," in the view of the Institute a qualification by the use of the word "Registered" would be the best way in which to give effect to that opinion. Having said so much, it will probably be equally useful if I go to on indicate in what the view of the Institute would be the effect of this change, and what would be the consequential alterations that should be made in the Bill. They are not many in themselves, but they are important in this respect, that the qualification of the word "Architect" would appear to remove, as far as one can see, all the opposition that could exist in respect of the Bill, because the effect is that it will change the Register from being a compulsory register to a voluntary register. As long as the word "Architect " was restricted, it was in effect making the register compulsory, because obviously it would be the desire of everybody who had used that term in the past to retain it, and if to etain it they were obliged to go upon the register, it would in effect make the register a compulsory one; but that may not be the case with regard to the term "Registered Architect." A great many people may be content to go on using the word Architect," and may have no desire to go upon the register, so in that sense the register would become a voluntary register rather than a compulsory one. That being so, one or two slight alterations will require to be made in the Bill. As the Bill stands, considered to be regispersons tered who are entitled to be registered,

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and the register would be made up rather upon the lines of the electoral list; the obligation of the Bill is laid upon the Council, as it is in the electoral list upon, I believe, the overseers, who have to make up the list and who have to find who is entitled to go on it, and put them on. That was the position with regard to the Bill as it stood, but it is thought that if this change is made that course should not be followed, because that course might involve putting persons upon the list as Registered Architects who have no desire to go upon it; therefore, persons who desire to go upon the list should, if the change is made, make application so as to ensure that nobody is placed upon that list against their will. That is a mere matter of procedure in the compilation of the list, but the importance of the change really lies in this, that if one takes the varying phases of the opposition to the Bill as it stands, it would seem that they are entirely removed by the change. For example the local authorities of the country, as you know, Sir, were apprehensive of the effect of restricting the word "Architect," that it would interfere in their opinion with the duties of their officials. The adoption of the term Registered Architect " entirely reTheir officials may go on calling themselves "architects"; their departments may be called "architectural," the word "Architect" may be used, so that that ground of opposition would seem to have entirely gone. An agreement was made with the local authorities to insert certain words

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in the Bill, as it was put before the House for Second Reading, and if in the opinion of the local authorities it is still necessary to have those words, if they think that they still require to be protected by those words, the Institute is quite willing that the words should remain, but in their view the change from "Architect " to 'Registered Architect " makes it unnecessary to put in the words that had formerly been agreed. Then, Sir, with regard to the body you have specifically mentioned in the Second Reading Debate, the Civil Engineers, the same position would seem to have arisen. I understand they were apprehensive that if they were not allowed freely to use the word "Architect" and "Architectural" their interests would be interfered with. That, Sir, again will disappear if the

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