of British Architects have said. Do not you think it is putting yourselves in rather a curious position to say here at a public sitting that there are certain affairs to do with your Association which you wish to be given to the members of this Committee only ?-(Mr. Forbes Campbell.) I have in mind, for example, that a remark has been made with regard to the Faculty of Architects, and I have in mind that particular feature of the case.

601. I may be very dense, but I do not quite see—perhaps you can explain to clear our minds-what is it you are afraid of?-We are not afraid of anything.

Chairman.

602. What do you want to conceal?We do not want to conceal anything, but at the same time we do feel that you are asking for a great deal of information which even as yet the Royal Institute of British Architects have not given you.

Mr. Gardner.

603. Give us a single instance?—I do not, for example, imagine that you have enquired into the financial status of the Royal Institute of British Architects.

Mr. Gardner.] We have got it; we have a list of membership, the names and addresses, and everything in the Kalendar.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

604. I am very curious to know what is meant by the objection to your members being approached. What do you mean by being approached?-(Major Athoe.) May I hand this in, Mr. Chairman. This is one communication; I am afraid I cannot find the other (handing in a communication).

Mr. William Hirst.

605. Just on this question of membership, Mr. Forbes Campbell, am I to understand that, with the number that you have of architects, that is qualified architects, in your Association, and the number which is contained in the Royal Institute of British Architects, the two numbers together from the area from which membership for architects purely can be secured, to any organisation, that is, represent the sum total of architects

that we have in the country?—(Mr. Forbes Campbell.) More or less, yes.

606. Substantially the number?—Yes. 607. In your evidence you are suggesting that your Association was rapidly growing, and I take it it is your desire as an Association to improve considerably the number that you have under the heading of architects in that Association ?—Yes.

608. If the area is circumscribed, that is to say, that they are either in your Union or in the Royal Institute of British Architects Association, that means to say that you have got to approach the Royal Institute of British Architects people in order to improve particular position?—Not sarily, because there are still a good many.

your

neces

609. Have you any idea what number? The point I want to come to is the point made by Major Athoe. He was suggesting that they wanted your members to be got at; that was presumably by the Royal Institution of British Architects. I am trying to suggest that it is a question of quid pro quo: that you will be trying to get at their people, and that they will be trying to get at your people. Is that a fair assumption? (Major Athoe.) In a friendly way we have no objection.

610. I am not suggesting that it is in any unfriendly way. I mean in the ordinary way of business?-If you will allow me to say so, I was only speaking of the matter of approaching our members in an improper way.

Chairman.] Mr. Bicknell, Sir Alfred Hopkinson would like to ask you one or two questions.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

617. Mr. Bicknell, are you Chairman of what is called the Board of Studies?— Yes.

618. Do you know what are the best architectural schools in England ?—Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham and Bristol, do you mean?

619. You know, I suppose, the schools in England where architectural instruction is given?—A good few of them, yes. 620. Which do you say are the best?— Liverpool, Leeds

621. Leeds?-The Leeds School of Art. 622. But is there a school of architecture at Leeds?—Yes; I believe it is recognised by the Royal Institute of British Architects.

623. Do you know the School of Architecture at Leeds?—Yes.

624. Who is professor there?-Professor Holden, I believe.

625. Do you know the London schools? -Not personally.

626. You know nothing of them?-Not personally, except by the curricula and the particulars, of course.

627. Is your Association in touch with any of those schools? Do you work with them?-We have examined the Summary of Conditions of the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Institution of Municipal and County Engineers, the Institution of Civil Engineers and Constructional Engineers, the Institution of Naval Architects, the Auctioneers' and Estate Agents Institute, the Land Agents' Society, and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers.

628. What have you done with regard to all those people, do you say?-We have been through their particulars and their details, and they are filed up for the purpose of reference for the Board of Studies in forming this new Board of Education Scheme.

629. At present have you any relationship with any of the schools of architecture? May we take it that London, Liverpool and Manchester are the best known? Yes, I believe so.

630. Are you in touch with any of those schools? Is this a personal question or one as regards the Association?

631. I do not mean you personally.-1 am teaching part-time. That is why I was not quite sure of the question. Of couse, we are not in touch with them for the moment, because we are drawing up this Scheme of Examination which is proposed to be part and parcel of the work of the Association of Architects and Surveyors, and for the moment we are not in a position to write to them to formulate anything; but the Scheme has been circulated.

632. Can you tell me any of the wellknown architects who have joined in framing that Scheme? We know the names of a few. Has any well-known architect joined?-There is a Board of Studies. I believe a list has been circulated.

633. Do you know the name of any well-known architect who has joined in framing that Scheme?-We have in the composition of that Board of Studies so many members of each profession in the Association.

634. I do not know that you have quite followed my question. It was this: On your Board which is drawing up this

Scheme of architectural education, can you tell me the name of any well-known architect?-Mr. Timbrel; he is the Architect at Crewe and the Borough Engineer at Crewe.

635. You know the great buildings in England which have been erected in the last 30 or 40 years, I suppose ?—Yes.

As

636. I want to know the name of any architect on that Board who is known in the architectural profession or the artistic world?-(Mr. Forbes Campbell.) regards that, the composition of the Board of Studies is more or less subservient to the General Council of the Association, and I think the membership of the Council is not a question which has been raised.

637. You would rather not answer that question? (Mr. Bicknell.) We have tried as far as possible to take, in the constitution of this Board, men who are actually connected with education.

638. I only want to know whether, on this Board which is framing a Scheme of Architectural Examination and, I suppose, Education, you can tell me the name of any well-known architect-any architect of distinction? You are put forward as the gentleman who knows about this. We know the names of the leading architects amongst us in England.—But these are members of our Association who have been selected for the purpose of their education.

639. My question was, have you on this Board the name of any distinguished architect? You say: "Oh, they are members of our Association." Does that mean that if they are members of your Association they cannot be distinguished architects?-Not necessarily at all. I am trying to draw this particular point, that on that Board we have so many professions to represent; we cannot all be architects. We try to meet the case by getting so many representatives of each profession.

640. This is the Board which is to fix architectural education and examination?

-The whole system of examination will be fixed by the Board.

Mr. William Hirst.

641. I want to ask Major Athoe this. Just now you said, in reply to a question, that you thought next year or the year after your Association might be approximately the size of the Royal Institute of British Architects?-(Major Athoe.) Yes.

up.

642. I am curious to know from what area that membership is likely to be made Are we to understand that there are going to be manufactured, if I may put it in that crude way, a quantity of land surveyors and other branches of the profession which are included in this Association to the extent of the difference in the present members of those two Organisations? Or are they coming from non-union members, or where are they coming from? That is what I want to know. On what basis does the Major rest his optimism regarding the growing nature of the Organisation?-I think there are still sufficient numbers of unattached architects in the United Kingdom and in the Dominions to make up that number.

643. Architects and surveyors?Architects and surveyors, if you like, yes, but architects alone to make up that number. We only need another 2,000 and then my optimism will be justified; it will make it half as big.

644. I though you said equal to?-No, I said half as big.

Mr. Gardner.

645. I understand, Mr. Bicknell, that You are Chairman of the Board of Studies? (Mr. Bicknell.) Yes.

646. I gather from your remarks that you are a part-time teacher ?—Yes. 647. What do you teach? Building

construction.
Chairman.] Thank you
gentlemen.

very much,

Chairman.

648. Mr. Hatley, I think you represent the Incorporated Society of Auctioneers and Landed Property Agents? That is

So.

649. And you approve of the principle of registration?-Yes, we do.

650. And in fact you rather support the Bill as it was introduced into the House of Commons?-We do.

31 May, 1927.]

651. You desire to associate yourself, I think, with certain amendments put forward by the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors ?-Yes, we do.

652. Would you kindly say what those amendments are?-I will go straight away to Clause 2, "Constitution of Councils." This clause interprets "Council " as being the Royal Institute of British Architects. If that stood, all the functions of the council, which functions would affect the public and many other architectural societies, would be vested in one society. But my Society thinks you will agree that it would not be either a just or a fair proposition. The constitution of the Council seems to us to be a vital factor in the successful earrying out of the object intended, and we therefore agree with the amendments provided by the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors, that the Council should be constituted in the manner prescribed in the Third Schedule as set out by them.

a

a

Clause 5: "Persons entitled to be Registered without examination." My Society consider that it should be ensured that no qualified architect practising bona fide as an architect, should be debarred from registration by reason of his being associated with any other business or profession allied thereto. Now, take for example an architect practising in small country town-practising solely as an architect (that is, specialist)-he possibly could not get sufficient work to earn a living any more than a doctor could do as a medica specialist, like the doctor, the architect becomes what might be termed a general practitioner. As a land agent, ho might act in the purchase of an estate. As a surveyor he lays it out. architect, he develops it, turns designs and carries out building operations upon it, and as an estate agent, sells or maintains and manages the property. If sub-clause (2) of the Bill is not made wide enough to prevent adverse questions being raised, in such a case an architect practising as a general practitioner might be ruled by the Admission Committee as unfit for registration, and a new clause might follow Clause 5 (2) as follows: "Nothing in this Act contained shall authorise the Admission Committee to refuse registration on the ground that an applicant, although

As an

out

[Continued.

practising as a bona fide architect is also associated with other businesses or professions allied thereto, and further, before the Admission Committee decide that a person is not entitled to registration, they shall give such person an opportunity of appearing before them and stating his case."

Further my Society feel that any architect member having prior to (not after) the passing of the Act, satisfied his Society as to his qualifications for joining the Society and that he was a bona fide practising architect, should be in itself sufficient to admit him for registration without questions being raised under sub-clause (2). My Society therefore think that Clause 5 (2) might read: "if any question arises as to whether any person other than an Architect Member of any of the bodies set out in the second Schedule hereto, is or is not entitled to be registered under paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, or paragraph 1 of section 6, such questions shall be referred to and determined by the Admission Committee hereinafter in this section mentioned, and on the Admission Committee reporting to the Council that any such person is or is not entitled to be so registered, the Council shall thereupon inform such person in writing of the decision of the Admission Committee and shall enter or refuse to enter his name in the register." This I might say is a little broader than the further amendment suggested by the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors, but I think it covers their point. "Admission Committee," Clause 5 (3). My Society considers that the constitution of this Committee should not consist solely of representatives of one architectural body, but that it should be strengthened, and it agrees with the amendment proposed by the Incorporated Association of Architects and Surveyors, namely, by representatives of the bodies set out in the Second Schedule of the Bill, and in the proportions enumerated in the amendment, and that the Committee should exist for the period set out in the amendment.

Clause 10: "Appeal against refusal, etc." My Society are strongly of opinion that a less costly means of appeal than that suggested by Clause 10 should be provided, and that before the Admission Committee refuse to register, an applicant should have an opportunity in person of appearing before them, and

31 May, 1927.]

of appealing to the Council against any adverse decision that the Admission Committee may make, and then if it fails to satisfy the Council, and he so thinks fit, of proceeding to the High Court as provided by the Clause. I have suggested under my observations on Clause 5 a new clause to meet my point, but otherwise we support the amendment made by the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors.

"Use of titles "-Clause 11. This Clause prohibits anyone not registered from practising after the expiration of one year from the date of the Act, but in a proviso permits a local authority or person performing any act or operation in connection with the construction of buildings, which such local authority or person was entitled to perform prior to the passing of the Act, to continue to do so. First as to the prohibition, an applicant for registration might have an appeal pending against the decision of the Admission Committee, but owing to circumstances the final appeal might not be decided for say two years, and then might be in favour of the applicant, but as the Clause stands the applicant would have been prevented from practising for a year. This does not seem quite reasonable, and we think it should be provided for. Secondly as to the proviso in favour of local authorities or persons performing acts or operations in connection with the construction of buildings which such local authority or person was entitled to perform prior to the passing of the Act, this in effect seems to us to nullify the objects of the Act, namely to provide for the future planning and construction of buildings, trained and scientific service, because it allows local authorities for all time to leave if they think fit to do so, to unqualified men the important work of passing plans for houses and other buildings and improvements, and also to leave persons not employed by local authorities and not registered, and perhaps not qualified, power to continue to act as architects if such person prior to the passing of the Act were entitled to perform acts or operations in connection with the construction of buildings and mind you, prior to the passing of the Act there was nothing which said that a person was not entitled to do the works. Subject to the two points which I have mentioned, my Society support the amendment made by the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors in

[Continued.

Clause 11, and to meet these points we suggest that the amended clause proposed by the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors, should read thus:—“ Any registered person shall be entitled to take and use the name of Architect' but a person shall not practise in Great Britain or Northern Ireland under any name, title or style, containing the word 'Architect' unless he is a registered person, and any unregistered person who after the expiration of one year or after a final decision on appeal has been given against an applicant, if the final decision on appeal has not been given within one year, so practices, or wilfully pretends to be a registered person, or takes or uses the name or title of an architect or any name title style or description implying that he is a registered person, or that he is recognised by law as a member of the profession of an Architect, shall on summary conviction be liable to a penalty not exceeding £50 for the first offence and £100 for every subsequent offence."

653. That is an alteration that you make? Yes. "Provided that nothing in this section shall affect the validity as between contracting parties of any act of any person under any customary forms or conditions of building contract."

Captain Wallace.

654. You take out the bit about the local authority do you?-Yes. Clause 12. As we have eliminated the proviso in Clause 11 in favour of local authorities and persons who prior to the date of the Act performed any act or operations in connection with the construction of buildings, which such local authority or person was entitled to perform prior to the passing of the Act, the 5-year period in the amendment made by the Incorporated Society of Architects and Surveyors is irrelevant and should be eliminated, otherwise we endorse the remainder of their amended clause.

Mr. William Hirst.

655. May I ask if Clause 12 to which the witness refers is supplemental to the copy that we have got. I have only got to Clause 11 here?-Yes, it is supplementary.

Mr. Gardner.

656. On the question of a less costly appeal what is your suggestion?—The