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12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

by the Association of Technical Institutions, and one by the National Society of Art Masters. Then, Sir, two names are desired to be added to the Board, the Representative of the Faculty of Architects and Surveyors and the Representative of the National Federation of Building Trade Operatives. Then, Sir, there is an amendment on line 23.

18. Are those additions made following out the suggestion that I made in my speech on the Bill, that other bodies would be accepted?-Yes, those do follow on that. Then in line 23 after the word of " the words "and to be nominated by

46

are inserted. That is to remove a doubt that has been expressed as to whether the Schedule as it stood, gave these bodies power to nominate as well as the privilege of being represented. Those words are inserted to clear away that doubt. Then in the Second Schedule Sir

Mr. Gardner.

19. On that Schedule, does that last addition apply to the other representatives? Does the right of nomination apply in each case?-Yes.

20. You have no objection to those words being there inserted?-No; it is intended that all the bodies represented shall make their own nomination.

Captain Wallace.

one

Then

21. Surely it would not be necessary to put in "of and "-it now reads " representative of and to be nominated ". You do not want to stick in another "of and " there?-I accept the correction. It is a draftsman's point and I leave that with the Committee of course. on page 10, on the Second Schedule, there are one or two additions made to the Second Schedule, and the titles of one or two of the bodies already in, have been made clearer. It appears that the Auctioneers and Estate Agents' Institute, should be described as the "Auctioneers and Estate Agents' Institute of the United Kingdom and "The Incorporated Society of Auctioneers and Landed Property Agents," and the reruainder are additional names. Sir, that covers the paper of amendments. should like if I might just to refer to the opening pages of my précis, in which reference is made to the Institute of British Architects.

I

Chairman.

[Continued.

22. If you please?-Each of the Members of the Committee I understand has before him a copy of the Institute Kalendar.

23. The Clerk has them.-I wish to say a word or two on these opening pages of my précis, because the Royal Institute of British Architects is the body to which under the Bill it is proposed to entrust the setting up and the maintenance of the register; and at the outset I should like to make it clear, as has already perhaps been made clear by what has been said on the amendments and on the Bill, that the Council under the Bill is entrusted with the setting up and maintenance of the register. On one side of the register is an Admission Committee and a Board of Architectural Education; those two bodies control the entrants to the register. The Admission Committee control the entrance of all men who are at present in practice or are now assistants or are now students; the Board of Architectural Education controls the entrance of all men who may after the passing of this Act either come into practice or become assistants or students, in so far as they are not covered by the Admission Committee. On the other side of the Register there is set up a Discipline Committee which controls removal from the register; so that you have the Council setting up and maintaining the register, you have the Admission Committee and the Board of Architectural Education controlling entrance to the register, and you have the Discipline Committee controlling removal from the register. Well, Sir, the structure of the Bill has been guided by these principles, that with regard to the entrance of men who are at present in practice, these men are (some of them) members of bodies other that the Royal Institute, and therefore to ensure that the admission of such persons should be as free and as open as any other person, the Admission Committee is made up of representatives from every body from whose members admission to the Register is likely to be sought. That is the object of the Admission Committee, that any man who is applying for admission to the Register and who is a member of any other body than the Institute shall find on the Admission Committee which is controlling the entrance to the Register, a representative of his society. Then, Sir, that deals with the people who are now in being. The Board of Archi

12 May, 1927.] Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

tectural Education will deal with the conditions for admission to the Register of persons who may hereafter come into the profession, and that Board has been constructed on this general principle, that the profession should be open to all classes, that it should be possible to enter the profession of Architecture from any level of society, and that there should be, as it were, a sort of educational ladder which would start with the elementary school and lead, ultimately, into the profession. Therefore the Board of Architectural Education has been constructed, or an attempt has been made, a very genuine and sincere attempt has been made, to construct the Board of Architectural Education in such a way that it will contain within itself representatives of every educational stage that is in existence in the educational structure of this country, and so if reference be made to that Board, it will be seen that there is a representative from the Board of Education, a representative from the Head Masters' Conference, a representative from the Incorporated Association of Headmasters, a representative

from the London County Council, representatives from the Technical Schools and from the Art Schools; representatives from the Schools of Architecture, representatives from the Universities, and, last of all, representatives from the bodies engaged in the building industry; a representative from the operatives, a representative from the employers, the Masterbuilders and representatives from the Architects, and it is hoped that what has been achieved there is a setting up of a Board of Architectural Education which shall not only be able to discharge its particular duties, but also be able to discharge them in as efficient and comprehensive and liberal a spirit as could possibly be devised.

Mr. Lindley.

24. Is there to be any representative from the Worker's Association or the Board? At the moment there is none proposed in the Schedule, but references to that body, I think, were made in the Second Reading debate, and it would be entirely in keeping with the ideas which have controlled the construction of the Board of Architectural Education, for a representative of that body to be added, and if this Committee should think it proper to introduce a Member from such a body, or from any other educational body, to complete what is in our minds,

[Continued.

the Institute would not only not resent it, but would welcome it. I have explained fully, I think, the machinery for controlling admission to the Register. Now. Sir, I want to pass to the machinery which deals with the removal of members from the Register. We have been influenced, and probably not unnaturally. by the position with regard to removal from the Register, that has arisen in other professions, and we have been anxious to remove any doubt that might arise, that removal from the Register should be made upon narrow professional grounds. You realise, of course, more particularly in the case of the Register as it stood under the original Bill, that removal was a very serious matter; therefore, Sir, we proposed to safeguard the position of every person upon the Register by making the Discipline Committee not only contain a number of his peers, but also by putting on to the Discipline Committee persons who should be entirely apart from the profession and should he able to view the whole circumstances in respect to the conduct of any individual that came before them, not from a purely professional point of view, but from the wider view of what was fair and right and equitable. Therefore, Sir, we have proposed a Discipline Committee which should contain three registered persons and two other persons, one of whom we desire should be appointed by the Minister of Health, and who might therefore be looked upon as a representative of the general body of citizens, and the other of whom should be appointed by the President of the Law Society, and might therefore be relied upon to see that whatever pertains to a proper hearing of a case should pertain in cases of discipline, and we think that the Discipline Committee as proposed does therefore meet the requirements of such a body. That, Sir, deals with the bodies that control admission to the Register, and the bodies that control removal. Now as to the Council itself. The Council of the Roval Institute is a Council representing the body, particulars of which are set out in the Kalendar which has been sent to the Members. The Royal Institute of British Architects is a body which has been in being now for nearly a century, and which enjoys Charters, the earliest one of which was granted, I think, in 1834, and has been supplemented by Charters granted in 1887 by His late Majesty Edward VII., and, last of all, by a Charter of 1925

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE

12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A.,

F.S.I.

The

granted by his present Majesty.
number of members of the Institute may
be found, I think, on page 330 of the
Kalendar, where they are set out in a
summary on that page. Those numbers
comprise persons who are directly con-
nected with the Institute as Members of
that body.

25. I do not think we want to go into so many particulars, Major Barnes.--As you please, Sir. I will refer you to the page.

26. I think we have got all that, you know, in the précis. You have explained very rightly certain matters with regard to the Committees. I think now, perhaps, you might go on to explain anything else that you think might be controversial?Then with your permission will merely

refer to that page if Members wish to find it, and on the front of the Kalendar they will see a map which shows that the territorial organisation of the Royal Institute of British Architects covers the whole country. The point that I want to make shortly with regard to this, is that the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects is a body not only representing people who are members of that Institute, but also representing a very large number of men, who, though not members of the Institute, are connected with it by being members of societies allied to it, and that there is a very complete territorial organisation, and I think that it may be said with truth, that the members of the architectural profession who are either directly or indirectly connected with the Institute, and are represented by the Council of that body, are somewhere between 60 and 70 per cent. of the whole body engaged in architecture, and, Sir, I will just conclude with this, that the proposal to place the register in the hands of the Council of the Institute, is not only justified by the facts of the case with regard to the composition and the constitution of the Institute, but there are also well established precedents for it. When the legal profession came under the operations of a Registration Act, in 1843, their registration was placed under the control of the Incorporated Law Society, which then occupied a position entirely analagous to that of the Institute now. They were an incorporated body, a body with a Charter, and when it came to be a question as to who should be entrusted with the maintenance of the Register of Solicitors, that body, with its history, its

[Continued.

constitution and its organisation, was
chosen for the task. When the Medical
profession came under a registration the
conditions were rather dissimilar. In the
first place there was not a complete asso-
ciation of Doctors and Medical men, and
in the second place there were a number
of bodies controlling the Medical pro-
fession of more or less equal status, and
the solution that was adopted there was
that of forming a General Council. That
is not the position with regard to the
profession of Architecture.
The pro-

fession of Architecture at the moment
stands in a very similar condition to that
of the law prior to the Act of 1843, and
the precedent there established of placing
the register in the hands of an old
historic and powerful body then existing,
is the one that we ask should be followed
with respect to the profession of archi-
tecture.

Chairman.] Thank you very much, Major Barnes, for a very lucid explanation of your case. I think now perhaps some of the Members of the Committee may like to ask you some questions. Perhaps we might begin on the right.

Mr. Gardner.

27. Major Barnes, there are just one or two points which I wish to make clear for the guidance of the Committee. In your education ladder from the elementary school, and from the industrial occupations, I take it for granted that in those cases where the early education, particularly of the industrial classes did not include a secondary education, that suitable exemption would be given from, say the qualifications for matriculation examination?-Of course the whole of the procedure of the Board of Education proposed to be set up under this Bill, is not defined in any kind of way. We are setting up a thoroughly representative body, and there is no attempt made in this Bill to lay down any rules for its procedure. It would be starting entirely de novo, and it would be within its functions of course to lay down any conditions at all. It would be a representative body.

28. But under the terms of admission, the Council on the regulation would have the power of determining the conditions of examination. What I want to make perfectly clear is this. I take no exception and do not intend to, to the proIcedure, but I want to make reservations. There are many Members of the Royal

12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

Institute of British Architects who I happen to know had no early education at all, and if the question of matriculation had been a determining factor they would never have been Royal Academicians. Would the Institute be prepared to have qualifying examinations to meet exemptions of that character, under the phrase on page 18 "Industrial Employment"? Would they be prepared to give exemption? The Law Society do it already. It is a difficult thing for a boy who has got to leave school at 12 or 14, who has not got the opportunity for educational attainments, but whose competence from an architectural point of view is indisputable?-On that may I say that as far as the Institute itself is concerned, at the moment matriculation is not laid down as a qualification, and I think there is every reason to anticipate that the standard that is set up under this Bill for registration, will be of a more moderate character that that set up for admission to the Institute.

Mr. Tasker.

29. Major Barnes you are a member of the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects?-That is so.

30. And you serve on no less than eight Committees of the Council? I do not know the number-too many I am quite

sure.

31. And you are the author of certain books which students are required to read, or it is suggested they should, and therefore you speak with exceptional authority? Well, I am a modest man.

32. Now do you agree that before granting further powers to the Royal Institute of British Architects, it is right and proper that the Committee should be satisfied that the duties now vested in the Royal Institute of British Architcets are satisfactorily performed?-As general principle I do not think that anybody should be given more powers if it is not using its existing ones properly. I quite agree to that.

a

33. Then in your sixth paragraph, on page one you set out that the Institute under section 140 of the London Building Act, are empowered to examine men for the post of district surveyor, as they are, and grant a diploma?—Yes.

34. Now are you aware that there is considerable difficulty in getting men for these very posts?-I was not aware of that; I thought it was rather the reverse.

[Continued.

35. But may I ask you whether it is not a fact according to your Kalendar that in 1918, 1919, 1920, 1923, 1924 and 1925, the Royal Institute of British Architects held no examinations at all for district surveyors. You will find it in your Kalendar?-I mean whatever is in the Kalendar. I am assuming it is

there as a correct record.

36. And only one in 1921, 1922, and 1926? That is right.

had

37. Although there been six vacancies in two years for these very important appointments?-Yes.

38. Now turning to the list which is published, the amount of fees enjoyed by district surveyors, I will not go through many years, but they vary from £60,000 to £90,000?-Not each surveyor.

39. No, the total?-Yes.

40. Has your Institute received any complaints from the Statutory Authority, namely the London County Council, because your Institute have not held examinations?-I am not aware of it.

41. May I direct your attention to public questions which were asked on Tuesday of this week.

Chairman.] I do not think we can go into that matter Mr. Tasker. You must confine yourself, please, to the précis. Outside matters are hardly within the knowledge of Major Barnes.

Mr. Tasker.] May I, Sir, direct your attention to the précis which he has submitted to us as evidence that the Royal Institute of British Architects are entrusted with the examination of men for the post of District Surveyor; that the Royal Institute of British Architects are asking for greatly extended powers. Surely one of the things for us to enquire into is as to whether the powers they now enjoy have been exercised in the public good?

Sir Murdoch Macdonald.] Is this suggestion that the Institute has not been duly fulfilling their functions.

Chairman.] That would be presumably what Mr. Tasker desires to bring out. Mr. Tasker.] Yes, I think it is.

Mr. Gardner.] I think we could shortcircuit this business.

Mr. Lindley.] Why should we short circuit it?

Mr. Gardner.

42. Might I ask if his Institute has any complaint from the Statutory

12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

authority? I am not able at this moment to give any answer to these questions, but if the Committee desire to hear me at a future time I will make enquiries and give the Committee the answers then.

Mr. Tasker.] I have no desire to take unfair advantage of Major Barnes or anyone else, but I submit that this is a very grave matter, and that Major Barnes should have an opportunity of becoming acquainted with the facts and give us evidence thereon. Then, Sir, I will leave the question of District Surveyor, if I may refer to it when Major Barnes is armed with the information. Chairman.] Certainly.

Mr. Tasker.

amongst

43. (To the Witness.) Now other things you have a Scientific Committee? That is so.

44. That Committee deals, according to your Kalendar, with all matters relating to science, such as steel frame buildings and ferro-concrete buildings?—Yes.

45. Quite recently new regulations have been issued under which your Institute have supplied Counsel in support of your contention that you should have a certain right of appeal. Has your Institute ever taken any action or done anything to help the design of steel frame buildings in London? The answer to that question of course is that the Institute as an Institute does not engage in the design of buildings; they of course fall to individual members of the Institute. On the general question, which I understand the implication of this question to be, that the Institute is not through its Science Committee playing an adequate part with regard to the development of modern design; of course that is a very large question and if instances are given to me and I am given the opportunity of rebutting them I will do so. But I should like to sav generally, both upon the last question that has been put to me and the present one, that while of course I cannot be expected to be familiar with the detailed working of every Committee of the Institute, I am a member of the Council of the Institute before whom comes any questions that arise in any of the Committees which bring them into any sort of contact with bodies outside the Institute. I am a member of the Council and I have been in regular attendance on Council meetings, and I am not aware of any matter

[Continued.

coming before the Council which could in any shape or form be construed as bringing to their notice neglect, either with regard to the District Surveyors or with regard to the point that Mr. Tasker has just raised. If there have been such instances they have certainly not to my knowledge come within the notice of the Council of the Institute.

46. But your Council would issue instructions that the right which you enjoy under the 1909 Steel Frame Act should be continued, that your Council did instruct learned advocates to appear before the Committee of the House of Commons demanding the right of your Institute to have a voice in determining the new Regulations referring to Ferro-concrete structures? What I know about this matter, if I know anything about it at all is this, that the Institute in conjuction with other bodies, the Surveyor's Institution I believe, and I am not sure whether it was with the Institution of Civil Engineers, it may have been, that they together acted jointly in making representations against a Bill proposed by the London County Council, and as a Member of the Council, and the Chairman of the Finance Committee, I remember passing an account for expenses in connection with this matter, for which I was assured the Institute and the other bodies had received very good value in that they had been quite successful in maintaining their representations, and had got a very substantial concession made on the Bill. That, to the best of my knowledge, is the position.

47. May 1 suggest then, Major Barnes, that what the Institute did was to pay the Bill and nothing else, that they left the only investigation to the Civil Engineers and the Structural Engineers?

can

Chairman.] I do not think we continue this. If Mr. Tasker desires to make an attack upon the Royal Institute of British Architects, I do not think this is the place to make it. The questions that he has put to the Witness may be very interesting from various standpoints, but they do not to my mind seem to affect the Bill at all, and I must ask Mr. Tasker if he will kindly confine himself to matters affecting the Bill.

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