446. Amongst the people whose work is known in architecture, who have done well known work, what members had you in your original association of that type of Architect? I mean amongst the people who have done any work that we know, amongst your original members. How are you incorporated? You are incorporated, are you not?-We are an incorporated Association. In what way do you mean, incorporated?

447. Are you a Chartered or Registered Company, or what?-(Major Athoe.) We are a registered company, Sir.

448. Registered under the Companies Acts? Yes.

449. With an ordinary Memorandum of Association ?—Yes. We have not got a Charter.

450. Several people met together, put down their names, and got incorporated as a registered company. They got the ordinary registration?—Yes.

451. Amongst those promoters, if one may call them so, what members had you who were known in the architectural world as having made any buildings of mark? (Mr. Forbes Campbell.) I should like really to be given an opportunity of submitting a statement on that.

Sir Murdoch Macdonald.

452. He has just pointed out he has not been long connected with the body himself? Not just quite that. I said that in December, 1925, I was practising mainly in Scotland, and in consequence, at the first meeting of the Council, in 1925, December, I was gradually just finding out some information, but since then I have been here.

Chairman.

453. These questions of Sir Alfred Hopkinson's will naturally lead to a great many more from other members of the Committee. Perhaps we had better adjourn now, and you might think them over. (Major Athoe.) I think we might help Sir Alfred if we told him straight away at the beginning that we started with a number of people we could count on both hands. We had not got Sir Edwin Lutyens or Sir Reginald Blomfield, but at the present moment we have an Honorary Fellow who is one of the best known Artists in this country, and that is Mr. Frank Brangwyn, and Mr. Frank Brangwyn thinks we are good enough to associate with now. 454. He is an Honorary Fellow?Yes.

your Memorandum of Association with you? (Mr. Forbes-Campbell.) Well, Mr. Chairman, if it would be all the same to

you, I have here with me Mr. Bicknell of Bradford, the Chairman of our Board of Studies. He has come specially from Bradford in order to give any information that Sir Alfred may wish regarding the Education Scheme.

and for that purpose I realise that Sir Alfred may wish to have certain clear questions answered and I am sure Mr. Bicknell, who is our Chairman of the Board of Studies, will be in a much better position to answer such questions

who the

461. I just wanted to see signatories were and ask you a question or two about the signatories. I do not know anything about them, but I would just like to find out something. You have not got the names of the signatories?-No.

462. Now just going to another matter: have you made any provision for architectural education?-Oh yes.

463. Have you any classes?—Yes, by means of classes.

464. Where are the classes?-We are not in the stage of stating yet that we have classes being held.

465. I want to know where the classes are being held now.-We have no classes actually being held.

466. And no lectures? No regular

classes.

467. Then what are you doing for architectural education at present? I mean, you are President?-I am President, admitted; but obviously I have delegated certain duties to the different functions of an association such as our's,

468. As President, so far as you know, you are holding no classes or lectures ?So far as we are concerned at the moment, we have no specific classes, but we are making a thorough investigation into all such matters, and Mr. Bicknell has got all the details which can be shown to you in five minutes.

469. I want to know what you know about Architectural Education-what you are doing with regard to it. At the present time you are doing nothing? -It has taken our Board of Studies some time to digest the existing classes. 470. At present the digestion has brought out nothing at all, has it?-I certainly think that it has brought out something.

471. You think it has, but you do not know what?-I can give you those statements in a few minutes by asking Mr. Bicknell.

472. But you as President of the Society know nothing about its Educational Power and as far as you know, there is none?-I do not agree to that at all. I say we have been investigating.

473. But what are you doing? Do you know of anything you are doing at the present time? I am only asking for information.-You mean as applied to classes in specific colleges?

474. How many classes or regular courses of lectures in Architecture. You do not know?

Sir Murdoch Macdonald.] Of course they have only been in existence 18 months, and possibly that is the reason why they have not yet got on their feet.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.] I am only asking questions for information.

Chairman.] You must allow Sir Alfred to put his questions in his own way provided they are in order, and he must put them to the witness. We cannot, with all due respect, have Members of the Committee suggesting either excuses or anything else.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.] I am only asking for information; I know nothing about this.

Witness.] I feel sure that Sir Alfred is interested in the educational part of any Architectural Association.

Chairman.

475. Obviously, that is why he is on the Committee.-I do wish that I may be given an opportunity of asking our Board of Studies Chairman to speak on such matters as Sir Alfred has been asking me about.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

476. However, if you do not know I will not press it. Do you conduct any examinations at present? Not at the moment.

Chairman.] Would you like this gentleman to be called, Sir Alfred, in order that you may put further questions to him?

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.] I will put it in this way. If the Incorporated Society like to call him to give any information which the President cannot give, I am not particular.

Witness.] I should certainly think it would clear up many of the points in the minds of the Committee relative to this matter if Mr. Bicknell were called. He has come from Bradford, and as a personal favour I think it would be very nice if he could make a few statements.

Mr. Gardner.

477. Before the President leaves, do I take it you will send in the Memorandum of Association?-If you so desire, Sir, yes.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

478. With the names of the signatories? Yes.

Chairman.] Would you prefer to examine him now, Sir Alfred, because some of the other Members might like to ask questions too? I would like to suggest that perhaps you had better continue your examination on the other points and then let him come in afterwards, because Sir Murdoch may want to ask the President some questions. We do not want to recall him exactly.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

479. (To the Witness.) What are the qualifications of your Membership? Of course, they pay a fee for admission? -Again, that is a matter for the Education Board which Mr. Bicknell would

clear up.

At the present moment there is an admission fee.

480. Are there any other qualifications?-Most certainly; there is a thorough investigation into every particular applicant.

481. What is it?-First of all, have you a copy of this Memorandum? (Handing in the same.)

482. What is this Board which considers the applications; is it made up of your own members ?-Yes.

483. Anybody outside?-No.

484. Do you know what are the schools in which architectural instruction is given, in England and Scotland, at the present time?-Yes; there are all the various technical schools, technical colleges. For example, in Glasgow there is the Royal Technical College of Glasgow.

485. Do you know in England what are the leading schools?-I am afraid I do not know a great deal of the leading schools in England. I am speaking of Scotland just now.

486. Do you know nothing of the London Schools of Instruction ?-Very little, personally.

487. Nothing of Liverpool or Manchester?-No, I forget the name. I know the Liverpool Polytechnic, I think it is.

488. So of the architectural instruction as it is now given in England, you do not profess to know anything?-I would not quite say that. You asked me first of all if I know any specific names of Colleges or Institutions in which architectural education is being conducted.

489. Do you know anything about the work that is going on in any of them in England? That is rather a big question. In what specific way do you wish me to answer?

490. What do you know of the London School of Architecture? It has distinguished features. Do you know anything of it? Never mind, I will not press it. Do you know anything of the Liverpool one?-It seems to me that this is undoubtedly a matter which, as President of a young Association, has been delegated to a specific gentleman.

Chairman.

491. Will you kindly answer the question? I indicated that that is a matter that is without my province at the pre

sent moment.

492. If you answer the question and say you do not know, we can have Mr. Bicknell. You are now in the witness box, and we are here to question you, and we are going to ask those questions of Mr. Bicknell as you suggest, but there is no reason why they should not be put to you.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

493. If you do not know, it is very simple to say so. I do not see why you should mind saying so if it is a fact that you are ignorant of this. I will not press it further. I think we know what is done for architectural education. Now would you mind telling me what an architect is? I see by Clause 12 a man is not to charge for anything he does as an architect. What is an architect? That can be phrased perhaps by a lawyer better.

494. You do not profess to say what an architect is?-Without making lengthy statement, no.

a

495. Well, what is an architect, the shortest definition you can give us? You say a man has not to charge for work dore as an architect. What is an architect-Primarily, an architect is responsible for the design and constructoin of a building.

496. Of any building?-Yes.

497. Anything else?-He is responsible for its supervision, for the erection of a building. He generally delegates the task to a clerk of works.

498. Are you an architect?—No, I am not an architect; I am a quantity

surveyor.

499. Would you say that anybody who designed and is responsible for the erection of a building, and is responsible for seeing that it is properly erected, is an architect?-Provided he has the necessary qualifications to do so, yes.

500. Not unless he has the necessary qualifications?-Quite.

501. How do you find those out?-By means, for example, of education-by means of examination rather I should say, or tests of a practical nature, and so far as my Association is concerned, if that is what is being referred to, there has been an endeavour to investigate the work done by the various practitioners during their careers.

502. What about a man who designs and erects a bridge-is he an architect if he is qualified for the job?—I said a building.

503. A bridge is not a building, you think? I do not think so.

504. You would not say Waterloo Bridge is a building?-No; I would say that is a civil engineer's job.

505. And not an architect's job at all? -Quite.

506. Supposing a man erects some machinery or gearing into a mill, and then designs the exterior of the mill, is he acting as an architect then, if a man designs the exterior? Take an ordinary mill, a cotton mill. The engineer puts in the gearing, the machinery, and then he designs the stone building. Is he an architect so far as he does the designing of the building?-In that specific way as a factory architect, yes.

507. He is an architect ?-A factory architect.

508. And supposing he charges a fee for it, he is charging a fee qua architect? -If he has been the responsible architect for that factory, I would say yes.

509. And under your clause-I call it your clause, it is a clause which you wish to be restored-a man is not to charge for the work he does as an architect, and if an engineer supplies the machinery and designs the building, if he erects it, he is charging fees as an architect?-He is charging as an architect when he is designing the buildings, yes.

510. Then supposing that engineer is not chosen to come on to your register, he will be debarred under that clause from charging any fees?—Not as an engineer. He is still entitled to charge as an engineer for any particular work he does as an engineer.

511. But you have just told us that the stone work of the building is the architect's work?-But you are referring, are you not, to the designing of the machinery?

512. No, I am referring to the man who does both? In the one case he would be entitled to charge fees as an architect. In the other case he would be entitled to charge fees as an engineer.

513. But if that engineer has not chosen to come on the register under the Act, he would not be able to charge anything for designing the building?-So long as it was a compulsory Registration Bill as set out, that is so.

514. So that really the effect of the Bill with those clauses in would be that an engineer who designs a mill or even a mill lodge, and also supplied or designed the machinery and gearing, would not be able to charge for that work which he

does as regards designing and superintending the building?-Certainly not as an architect.

Dr. Watts.

515. I see you say in the first place that your Association was formed in September, 1925. What really was the main reason for the formation of the Association ?-Well, I was not connected with the Association myself in September, 1925.

516. What do you consider was the main reason? Was it formed in antipathy to the Royal Institute of British Architects?-I do not think so.

517. Are the relations friendly between the two societies? We have had one or two conferences, and they were carried out in quite a friendly spirit.

518. Then there is the question of the qualifications. I see you have two grades, Fellows and Associates, and you say here that "Applicants must be over 30, and must have been in practice or held an official position for a period of at least seven years, and must be otherwise able to satisfy the Council of their qualifications and experience." How can the Council be satisfied as to their qualifications? Is there any examination test? By means, for example (you are specially dealing with dealing with Fellows?), forwarding or obtaining plans of recent work that they have carried out; by enquiring into their previous education, which is detailed on an application form, and by getting information from their particular employers if they assistants, or from other colleagues that they have been dealing with during their particular three or four years prior to the application being received.

of

are

519. But is there any definite examination conducted by your Association ?Not at the moment.

520. They do not appear before any Board of Examiners or anything of that sort, and the same thing, of course, applies to Associates. Then I see here for a student he must be over the age of sixteen, have obtained a standard general education equivalent to the Oxford and Cambridge Local Examinations or other approved examinations." Do you mean the Oxford and Cambridge

Senior or Junior Examinations?-The

Senior.

521. But at the same time, how can you ascertain that he has had that education if he has not passed that examination? Do you insist upon their

having passed those examinations, or an equivalent examination?—Yes.

522. You are definite on that-he must have passed either the Oxford or Cambridge local, or some similar examination before he can be registered as a student? That is so; that is the scheme that has been approved by the Council.

523. Then you say on the third page (No. 10) "Particulars of Technical examinations passed." What are those Technical examinations, and by whom are they conducted?-For example, there are many building construction examinations. Many of our members are also members of other bodies; for example, some of our members are also members of the Royal Institute. "The

524. Then at the finish you say: Board, when satisfied with the qualifications "of course what I want to put to you is this: Do you think that in the absence of an examination test, the Board could possibly be satisfied with anybody's knowledge of the profession?— Well, as a matter of fact I understand that even the Royal Institute in 1916 passed Licentiates without examination, and I do consider that there is every possibility of being able to obtain information without examination with regard to any man so far as his qualifications are concerned.

525. That is second hand information; but would you not agree with me that it would be much more satisfactory if you had a definite examination conducted by your Association?-Certainly Sir, that is so, but we are a young Association, as I say. The whole scheme of our educational policy has been thoroughly investigated, and as a matter of fact it has been decided that there is to be no rush at all in the evolving of the scheme for education, as we consider that it is necessary thoroughly to investigate the matter, having the older bodies' schemes well in front of us. We feel that certain improvements can be made.

526. Do you not agree that the Royal Institute have done much more in regard to the education of Architects than your Association could have done?-It is obvious that the Royal Institute has been in existence for a very long time, and we have only been in existence for 18 months; but we feel that we can improve by a system of progressive examination, instead of a system of cram. We feel that we can do something for the good of the profession in connection