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12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

Bill is a Bill in which the term " Registered Architect," and that alone, is restricted in use. It would appear that there would be no interference with the Civil Engineer. He may still go on using the term "Architect "; he may describe his work as architectural; he may do anything and everything that he was able to do before the Act. Then, Sir, we come to the case of the cooperative societies. Apprehension was expressed by them that the Bill as it stood, placing restriction upon the use of the words "Architect" and "Architectural" would affect certain departments of their undertaking which are carried on and which are known as "architectural" departments, it would affect their employment of architects if they were not able freely to use the term. With the change in the Bill from "Architect " to "Registered Architect," the co-operative societies will be as free to call their departments "architectural" and as free to employ the term "Architect " as they have been in the past, and they will not stand in any danger or risk from the use of the term "Registered." And the same thing applies to other bodies than co-operative societies, who, by the restriction of the terms "Architect" and "Architectural" were apprehensive that their business would be interfered with. All these apprehensions would seem to be dispelled and all these grounds for opposition would appear to be removed by this change in the Bill, and it is very largely because that has been realised by the Institute, and because the Institute from the very beginning has been animated by the desire to avoid as far as they possibly could any interference with anything which might be regarded as a vested interest, or which might be regarded as an infringement upon liberty or an interference with rights which have long existed-it is these considerations taken in the mass, voiced as they were in the House of Commons and endorsed

by the Home Secretary, that have brought the Institute, as I said at the beginning, with considerable and very natural reluctance, to agree to this change. Sir, those are as far as we are able to see them for the moment, the main changes that will be made, both in the construction of the Bill and in the effects of the Bill. They would seem to be very important, and we hope that in the words of the Home Secretary the

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limiting of the title to Registered Architects" will go a long way to meet the views that have been expressed upon the Bill. There are Sir, one or two things to say about the construction of the Bill, that I should like to go on and say, if I may.

5. If you please. Have you your amendments?-I have the amendments which would appear to follow upon the change from the word "Architect " to the words Registered Architect." propose to hand those in. I do not know whether at this stage the Committee wants me to go through them.

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12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

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7. Perhaps you would proceed now.It may be convenient, Sir, having handed in this paper of amendments, if I just very briefly indicate their purport; it may be of assistance to Members of the Committee. On page 1 the first amendments I have already explained; they arise out of the change from what I have described as a compulsory register, to a voluntary one. The amendments on Clause 5, relate to the Admission Committee. It will be remembered that in the structure of the Bill, a Committee has been proposed called an Admission

Committee, to regulate entrance to the register so far as persons at present in practice, or assistants or students are concerned. Several applications have been made by bodies whose names do not appear in the Second Schedule, and the Committee are asked to add the names of those bodies and that increases the number of the Admission Committee, and the amendments to Clause 5 are in the main for the purpose of increasing the number of the Admission Committee, to make room for the new applicants, and also to provide for the definition of the register at the end of 5 years-that is so far as the persons at present in practice are concerned. It sets up a limit of 5 years from the passing of the Act within which they may make application.

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8. I see in Clause 5 (b) Northern Ireland " is taken out; that was mentioned in the Second Reading of the Bill. That is not an amendment which you propose to make now; that is not a consequential amendment.-No, Sir, that was mentioned in the Second Reading and the position there is that it is the desire of the architects in Northern Ireland, to have the conditions of registration adapted to their position; it has not been found possible within the range of this Bill to make such modifications, therefore it is suggested that they should be left out of this Bill in order that they may proceed with a measure of their own. Then, Sir, as you have the Bill before you, that makes my task easier. On page 4 some amendments have been made to Clause 6 (2).

Captain Wallace.

9. Before we go any further, might I say that for a moment, that there appears to be one very substantial alteration on page 3-that is the omission of paragraph 4, which is that no fees should be charged.-Yes. On that, Sir, that is an amendment, as of course all these amendments are, for the consideration of the Committee. It was felt at the beginning that when the register was a compulsory register, on which persons had to go whether they liked it or not, that it would be an improper thing that they should be pursued by a fee for doing something which they had not any desire to do. This is one of the changes wrought in the situation by the change of the term. Nobody need go on this register now unless they desire to be

12 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

placed upon it; therefore it was thought that it would not be an improper thing under those circumstances to make a fee.

10. Surely, Major Barnes, if the Bill is going to be of any use to you at all, everybody will more or less have to go on to it, or suffer professionally in consequence will they not?-Our desire of course is, that the register should be as large as possible, and if the Committee should feel that this change is not desirable, it is not one that we press. It seemed to us to be one that arose out of the change.

Mr. Gardner.

11. What you really mean is the fact that, in taking a new Bill of this kind, you have got to take in everybody who was up to the qualifications; therefore, as a preliminary measure you could not compel them to pay a fee; but now if the Bill as amended is passed, anybody who wants to apply will instal the necessary fee. That is the position.-Yes. I think really what was in our minds at the beginning was this, that we knew that there were certain persons, there might be a number, we did not think there was a very great number, who objected to the principal of registration, and that they should be compelled to submit to Parliament, and in addition pay a fee, seemed to us to be probably more than should be asked, and therefore we struck that out. We propose to re-insert it here as arising from the change. People coming on the Register now will come because they want to be put there, but if this Committee feels it does not justify the change, we are not pressing it in any shape or form.

Dr. Watts.

12. If the register becomes as you say voluntary, will not that interfere very seriously with your disciplinary powers which are provided for in the Bill.When we come to those, you will see what modifications are proposed there.

Chairman.] I think we had better go through the amendments Dr. Watts, before you cross-examine the Witness upon matters of that kind, if you do not mind.

Witness.] Yes; I shall be coming to that Clause in one moment. In the amendments on Clause 6 (2) Sir, we are proposing to insert some words which may be found at the top of page 4: “

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this Act called the Board ') " and "for the purposes of this Act." Those are merely intended to make the meaning of the Clause more clear. Then we are deleting some words which are being removed, because some apprehension has been expressed as to the permanence of the Board, if those words remained. It was thought that the constitution of the Board of Architectural Education might be interfered with under those words, and to remove that apprehension it is desired that they should be struck out. Then, Sir, we come to Clause 7 which is the Clause dealing with conduct, and of course to meet the point that has just put to me, the disciplinary powers under that Clause will be limited to the persons who are on the register.

Dr. Watts.

13. That was my point.-They will be effective within the range of the register, but not beyond it. Those words have been amended in the hope of making them a little more explicit. The words "conducted himself in a manner derogatory to his professional character " have been altered to the words, "being guilty of any conduct disgraceful to him in a professional respect" which are words I think which may be found in some previous Registration Act.

Mr. Gardner.

14. But you retain the right to strike an architect off in respect of a conviction for a misdemeanour?-Yes, those words remain unaltered.

15. I will deal with that later.-Then, Sir, we come to Clause 11, which has been modified to meet the change brought about by adding the qualifying term

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registered." At the end of Clause 11 there are now some provisos which were inserted originally to meet the point of view of the Local Authorities, and also it was thought, they met the point of view of the Civil Engineers. It is not proposed to remove those words, although it is a question whether, now that the word " registered" is being interpolated, those provisos are really necessary. Then on Clause 12, the deletion of this Clause was agreed to on the Second Reading, but the Committee are asked to consider whether, in view of the change and in view of the Clause only applying to registered architects, it is not a Clause that in its amended form might be retained.

12 May, 1927.] Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

Chairman.] I think that was the suggestion made by Sir Alfred Hopkinson in his speech in the House, that that Clause should be retained if it was registered architect" and not "architect."

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.] I understand so; I do not remember mentioning it.

Witness.] It is a Clause for which precedents can be found in earlier Registration Acts, and here it is simply limited to this, that if a person holds himself out as a Registered Architect and is employed on that understanding and is not in fact a Registered Architect, that he should be debarred from recovering his fees as a Registered Architect. It would be limited entirely to that construction. Then in Clause 15 there are some words struck out that follow on a suggestion made by the Home Secretary, and while the Clause retains the power to the Council to initiate prosecutions, it deprives them of the benefit of any penalties that may be derived therefrom. That deprivation has this unfortunate effect, that it leaves the expenses of the prosecution upon the Council, and does not give them any means of meeting them other than out of their funds. Then, Sir, on the following page, page 7, Clause 16 (a), some words have been struck out in order to remove any doubt as to whether the examinations were held by the Board or the Council. We have been asked to do that, and we have agreed that that might be done if the Committee thought fit. Then on Clause 16, lines 21 and 22, there are two amendments. The first one is put in, in order to ensure that the Council in making any regulations which might affect either the admission Committee or the Board of Architectural Education, should consult those bodies before making those regulations. That is the effect of the first one. The second one, which is to insert the word "Act" in place of the word " Section," is put in, in order

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remove a question as to whether regulations which come under Clause 6, were regulations that had to be approved by the Privy Council. It was thought that the Bill as it stood might enable the Council to make regulations under Clause 6, which would not be submitted to the Privy Council, and as the intention of the Bill was that such regulations should be approved by the Privy Council, that alteration has been made. Then, Sir, on page 8 there is an amendment shown to line 14, and this amendment

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gives effect to an undertaking given to the local authorities, on the one hand, and to the point raised by the COoperative societies, on the other, but which is equally pertinent to departments of private firms, that the Bill as it then stood with the word "Architect" in it, should not apply to any person when performing any of these duties or functions connected with any office held by him under any public or local authority. Now, as the word is no longer "architect " but Registered Architect" it may be that that exemp

tion is unnecessary, but if it is felt by the Committee and by the local authorities that they still require it, the Institute raises no objection.

Chairman.

16. That was the arrangement that you came to with the County Council's Association? Yes, that those words should be inserted.

17. And that was agreed?—Yes, bur that of course was on the basis of the Bill as it then stood, and it would seem to be entirely unnecessary now; but there has not been an opportunity of taking the views of the County Council's Association on that point. The remaining words "or to the department of any undertaking the head of which is a registered person were intended to take the departments of the co-operative societies or any private firms, out of the Bill. There again, in view of the change from 66 66 architect " to registered archi

tect " as these departments are not

interfered with by the Bill, this exemption would seem unnecessary, but there has again been no opportunity to consult these bodies on that point. It would seem to be more a question of tautology than anything else. Then, Sir, the last amendment on that page refers to the exclusion of Northern Ireland. Then, Sir, Sir, when we come to the Schedules, there are one or two amendments on the First Schedule. The first amendment is an amendment which simply locates the Architectural Association as being in London. The second one beginning on line 18, dealing with the representatives of the Polytechnics, has been amended to meet the wishes of the technical institutions. The effect of it is that instead of the three representatives who come under that section being all nominated by the National Society of Art Masters, two of them are nominated

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