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18 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

it might be creating an injustice by not including the University of Dublin before the South of Ireland became a Free State, because I understand that the University of Dublin did issue diplomas from their Architectural School, and it seems unfair that any holder of such a diploma should be refused access to the Register. That is prior to 1922 when it was still, so to speak, part of Great Britain. We shall have no hesitation in accepting that. The Free State has now a Royal Institute of its own, and we were anxious not to cause any interference, but, if the Committee make that alteration, it will be received by us with entire satisfaction.

Chairman.] Now we come to Major Tasker, who has been kind enough to give us a précis of a number of questions. Many of these will not now be necessary, in view of the fact that we may be calling a witness from the London County Council, but Major Tasker would like, I think, to put a few points to Major Barnes. Major Tasker, will ask you your questions now?

Major Tasker.

215. With reference to these documents which you have handed in, Major Barnes: First, the Steel Frame Buildings document. Your Institute is one of four bodies with right of appeal under certain sections of the 1909 Act?-Yes.

216. There is the Royal Institute of British Architects, the Civils, Surveyors, and Structurals?—Yes.

217. Has there ever been a case of appeal since 1909 made through you, do you know? You may not know, of course. -No, I do not; I cannot say with regard to that.

218. Then it was because of that privilege, I think, that the Royal Institute of British Architects sought equal rights under the Steel Frame Act of last year? -Yes.

219. That was all, was it not? They did not ask for anything else, did they? -I am afraid I cannot answer that. Of course, as one of the principal bodies engaged in constructional work, we have always endeavoured to safeguard our interests under all the Acts, and we took the same steps with regard to the 1925 or 1926 Act that we have always done.

220. But what I do not understand in all these documents is that when one

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asks any questions, one does not seem to get much forrarder. You say: "The R.I.B.A. Delegates were fully associated with the Representatives of the other Institution in the action which was taken to endeavour to amend the proposals of the L.C.C. letters."-Yes, that is right.

221. What proposals?-I have handed in a statement here.

222.

I am reading from it. I have handed in a statement to-day. I understand you are reading from that?

223. Yes, from your statement.Which one? The Précis of Evidence?

224. The one headed "Reinforced Concrete Regulations."-What is the paragraph upon which you are now?

225. About six lines from the bottom -the fourth line of the last paragraph. -Yes. What is the point? I am looking at the last paragraph.

226. What proposals did you put forward? I think it is set out very clearly in this paragraph that the Royal Institute of British Architects was associated with certain other institutions, that is to say, the Institution of Civil Engineers, the Surveyors' Institution and the Institution of Structural Engineers. Our answer is contained in the two paragraphs. There were Draft Revised Reinforced Concrete Regulations prepared by the London County Council in 1925. When those came out, our Building Acts Committee considered them and prepared a Memorandum of their views for submission to the London County Council, a very comprehensive Memorandum; but before this was considered by the Council proposals came to the Institute, not to act alone, but to act in conjunction with three other bodies, the Institution of Civil Engineers, the Surveyors' Institution and the Institution of Structural Engineers. Therefore, instead of proceeding alone we proceeded in company with these four bodies, and the Memorandum that we had prepared acting alone then came before the Committee of these four bodies which was ultimately appointed, but the proceedings after that took the form not of action on the part of any particular institution but a joint action, and the share of the Institute became merged, of course, in the share of the other bodies.

227. That is very interesting, but it is not quite an answer to my question.

18 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

Did you actually, either by yourselves or in conjunction with the Civils, Structurals and Surveyors, submit one single proposal, or did they or did you conjointly submit one single proposal to help or to criticise the London County Council Regulations?—I think what is set out here is what took place. It says: "A Joint Committee was formed. The R.I.B.A. delegates were fully associated with the representatives of the other Institutions in the action which was taken to endeavour to amend the proposals of the L.C.C. both before the Bill came before the House of Lords and in drafting the Petition to the House on the subject. The R.I.B.A. delegates also attended before the Committee of the House of Lords which was considering the Bill." If your point, Sir, is that these joint bodies instead of coming before the London County Council and making proposals went to Parliament with their objections direct, that I do not know; it may have been done.

228. I suggest that neither the one nor the other ever brought forward any proposals; they have never shown any activity, and the only activity they showed before Parliament was to try and get the right of appeal on certain clauses. Here you have got, with great respect, these four bodies, who are after all the four bodies in the country dealing with constructional matters, who certainly have had before them the Regulations prepared by the London County Council and who certainly did take such steps as appeared proper to those four Institutions to have those amended in the direction they thought was desirable; and my information is that they achieved their object, at all events to a very considerable extent. I do not know if the Committee would be interested in knowing what were the actual particular proposals on specific points that were put forward.

Chairman.] I think your answer is quite sufficient; and, Major Tasker, I must ask you to confine yourself to questions which are pertinent to the Bill.

Mr. Tasker.] With great respect, Sir, may I point out to you that here are definite statements which I am endeavouring to show are not justified by the evidence given in this case.

Dr. Watts.] On a point of order, I claim that these questions are entirely

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irrelevant. They have nothing to do with the registration and training of architects. This is purely a domestic quarrel and the Royal Institute of British Architects-it has nothing whatever to do with registration or education.

Chairman.] No. I rule that those questions cannot be asked, and, Mr. Tasker, you must confine yourself to pertinent questions and to questions which deal with the Bill now before the Committee.

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Mr. Tasker.] Of course, Sir, I accept your ruling. I never disobey the ruling of the Chair. (To the Witness.) May I turn to the other document headed 'R.I.B.A. Statutory Examination." I have been looking at the Kalendar and I cannot reconcile this with the Kalendar. I do not know whether I am in order in asking whether this ought to agree with the Kalendar.

Chairman.] Really, I venture to think that you can ascertain that for yourself. Mr. Tasker.] I have, Sir. My difficulty is to know whether I am entitled to ask any questions upon documents which are handed in.

Chairman.] Certainly you are.

Mr. Tasker.] What I desire to do is not to be hostile to the Royal Institute of British Architects, but to prevent a very unfortunate position of affairs arising between them and the greatest public Authority in the world. According to this document handed in to-day by Major Barnes, the Institute have passed five men since 1925, and there have been appointed in 1925 five District Surveyors; in 1926 seven District Surveyors; in 1927 three District Surveyors; that is 15; and there are only five men to fill those posts. So we have had to go back on the old order of things. I want to ask Major Barnes, if I may, whether the Institute will accelerate the examinations for these very valuable posts, or are they going to be put in the undignified position of compelling the Council to hold an examination themselves?

Chairman.] You can ask him that question by all means.

Witness.] May I say in reply to that on the first point that Mr. Tasker has made as to the relations between the Institute and the London County Council, that we are very desirous that the

18 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

most helpful relationships should exist and we should certainly pay attention to anything that was brought to our notice from the London County Council, and we should welcome any help Mr. Tasker might give the Institute in promoting such relationships between those two bodies. On the question of the District Surveyor examination, the position is that the Institute are charged with the holding of these examinations, while there is a sort of reversionary interest to the London County Council. The statement I have put in shows that we have on every occasion since 1918 to 1927 advertised the examinations. In 1919 we advertised the examination; there were not any candidates; we therefore did not hold it. In 1920 we advertised the examination twice, but there were still no candidates and the examination therefore was not held. Those were two very exceptional years, 1919 and 1920. Passing from that to 1921 to 1926, in 1921 we examined two men, who were all that came before us; three men in 1922; one in 1923; one in 1924; three in 1925; and in 1926 we examined ten. We submit with very great respect that we can do no more than advertise the examination and hold it. We cannot compel candidates to present themselves. We have taken steps. We have isued special notices in our "Journal" with regard to the examinations and we think that we have done everything that we could to bring the examinations to the notice of per

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Mr. Lindley.] Pardon me, Sir, they are not explained. We are not having the explanation except from Major Barnes now.

Witness.] Now we come to 1925. The statement I have just handed in shows that there were two District Surveyors examined in that year; that one was passed and one failed. now there is no entry in the Kalendar against the year 1925 and no name, and in that respect the Kalendar is deficient in information as compared with the statement. does not necessarily follow, of course, that the statement is an inaccurate one; I mean it may be a deficiency in the Kalendar.

Mr. Tasker.

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18 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.1.

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234. The only point that was raised was that the Kalendar does not do justice to your Institute. If you had shown your activities, this question would not have arisen.-We are probably suffering from the omission that has been made.

Sir Frederick Rice.

235. There is no confusion, I suppose between District Surveyor and Building Surveyor?-No. The list on page 580 deals with District Surveyors.

Mr. Tasker.] I do not think in view of all the circumstances of the case that I ought to waste the Committee's time. I do not think I ought to ask any more questions.

Mr. Gardner.] In view of the expression of opinion

Mr. William Hirst.] Before Mr. Gardner begins, I venture to say that I am just afraid that Major Tasker is feeling he is under some injustice.

Chairman.] No.

Mr. William Hirst.] Do not make any mistake. You will remember that when we were in Committee before our friends were called into the room we agreed that certain questions should be taken from the precis that Major Barnes has submitted. I think Major Tasker is only refusing to put them because he is smarting under a sense of injustice from the ruling of the Chairman. I do not think you want to give that impression, Sir.

Chairman.] No, I do not want to give that impression.

Mr. William Hirst.] But that is Major Tasker's feeling.

Mr. Gardner.] To a point of order: I want to elucidate a point in Major The Tasker's questions. Can I do it? question of Major Tasker's feelings does not come into it at all.

Chairman.] Let Mr. Gardner put his question first, and then we will discuss Major Tasker.

Mr. Gardner.] Would Major Barnes be good enough to tell us whether he could give us any reason as to why so few people are willing to come forward for these examinations?

Witness.] I find myself in some difficulty with regard to that, but I think there may be one or two reasons. In the first place, a District Surveyor is not allowed private practice, and that may have an effect upon young and ambitious men who look to what they may think is

the larger scope of private practice. Then I think another thing may have had its effect-I put this merely as a supposition and Major Tasker may have something that he can say upon it, but there has been a certain amount of uncertainty, I believe, in late years as to the requirement of District Surveyors and their tenure of office has been prolonged from time to time. I think the prospects of vacancies have not therefore been quite as clear to candidates as they would otherwise have been, and I think that may have had its effect. Perhaps the increase in the numbers in 1926 is due to the fact that a decisive step was taken by the London County Council in retiring a certain number of surveyors and opening the field.

Sir Murdoch Macdonald.

236. On the same subject, may I ask Major Barnes is there a likelihood that there have been objections to the

strenuousness or the hardness of the examination, and that that may have been a reason why men have not come forward? I would like if I might to confer upon that point. (After conferring): In reply to that question I cannot say that I have any reason to believe that that is the case.

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18 May, 1927.]

Major HARRY BARNES, F.R.I.B.A., F.S.I.

have made your examinations too difficult? That is so, until, that is, up to a date subsequent to the last meeting of this Committee.

Mr. Lindley.

240. Can we be sure, Major Barnes, that this typewritten statement is absolutely correct in respect of the nine years 1918 to 1926 inclusive? It shows that twenty-one persons were examined, that seven passed and that fourteen failed?— That has been put into my hands. I am appearing before the Committee. As far as I am concerned, these are absolutely correct figures. If there is any doubt upon the point I will get a certified statement and put it in, but it is given to me as a document upon which I may rely in presenting it to the Committee.

241. Only one in three passed the examination?-That would be so.

Chairman.] Now, Major Tasker, would you kindly continue your examination?

Mr. Tasker.] I very much prefer not to. Chairman.] Have you no further questions to ask? We should like to hear anything you have to say. I am sure Major Barnes would like to answer your questions.

Mr. Tasker.] In the circumstances I think it is a little unseemly, and I do not wish to be a party to it.

Mr. William Hirst.

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242. In view of Major Tasker's unwillingness to take his advantage, may I pursue this question of District Surveyorships and the examination? What about the country examinations, Major Barnes -are they controlled in any way by your people? No. The situation in London is quite different from what it is in the provinces. In the provinces the officials who act in somewhat the same capacity as District Surveyors in London municipal officers, such as the Borough Surveyor and Municipal Surveyor. They get their qualifications in an entirely different kind of way. The practice of having District Surveyors is peculiar to London entirely, and the District Surveyor is a person who occupies a sort of judicial capacity. He is not a municipal officer, like a Borough Engineer. It is a very old body. It goes back, I believe, to the time of the Stuarts or something of that sort. A District Surveyor has got

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a statutory office and he is independent of the Local Authorities. He is not like a Borough Engineer or anybody of that kind; it is entirely confined to London, and the Royal Institute of British Architects has got nothing to do with any similar appointment in the country; it is purely a London matter.

243. And on the result of the examinations for the years you have put before us, can we take it that the supply is going to meet the demand so far as these local appointments are concerned?-I understand from what Major Tasker said that they are just beginning to feel that the supply is about exhausted, but I feel quite sure that if it becomes known that there is an early chance of vacancies in these offices we shall get men coming forward.

244. In competitions of that kind is it possible that local Municipal Surveyors may be found to be candidates for these particular posts?-I think that anybody may become a candidate for them.

Chairman.

245. Then, Major Barnes, perhaps you will be good enough to come again on Tuesday, when we are meeting again?-Yes. I would just like to say that there are one or two amendments in respect of Northern Ireland that I desire to hand in to-day. It will not take me two minutes to say what they are.

246. Very well.-When I was giving evidence last week the situation with regard to Northern Ireland was that discussions were going on with the Ulster Institute in regard to the Bill which had not arrived at any conclusion, and it was thought better that Northern Ireland should not come within the operation of the Bill; but since that time these negotiations have arrived at a satisfactory conclusion and it is desired that Northern Ireland should be restored to the Bill and that the Ulster Institute should have representation both on the Admission Committee, the Board of Architectural Education, and the Discipline Committee, in reference to cases in Northern Ireland; and the same thing should take place with regard to the Incorporated Association of Scotland. They are not matters which affect the principle of the Bill, but merely the composition of the bodies charged with administration. I will hand these amendments in.

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