18 May, 1927.]

[Continued.

between them were at the time of the amalgamation the only bodies in existence who were architectural societies. After the amalgamation, that is to say after 1924, two other bodies then came into existence; first of all a body which I believe is known as the Faculty of Architects, and then as an offshoot from that body, a body known as the Incorporated Association of Architects Now both those bodies will under the Bill have representatives on the Admission Committee and representatives on the Board of Architectural Education; but as to what their numbers are, I really do not know. I am not in possession in either case of a document such as this, which sets forth their membership.

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179. So you could not say on that point the respective strength of the two Associations which you have just now referred to. No, I cannot give any figures. can only assume that taking into account the membership of the Institute and its allied societies and taking into account the very recent formation of these societies, that the numbers of their members cannot possibly be very considerable; but of course if these societies come before the Committee they will be able to give you figures.

180. Has there been any attempt on the part of either one or both of these associations to associate themselves with your people in the promotion of this Bill? Yes, negotiations have gone on in which I have taken a part, and as far as I know the attitude of these two bodies, they are as devoted to the cause of registration as the Institute and its allied societies are, and are entirely in harmony with the idea. In so far as association in the administration of the Bill is concerned, the result of my investigations was to lead me to believe that their inclusion on the Admission Committee and on the Board of Architectural Education would substantially satisfy them.

181. Has there been any real attempt I just want to understand this point clearly) on the part of your Association to discuss with or to collaborate with say the Incorporated Association which I think you named as one of the societies -has there been any attempt on your part to co-operate with them or to allow them to co-operate with you regarding the promotion of this measure.-Yes. There have been very real negotiations carried on. As the Committee may be

aware I am the Chairman of the Registration Committee and the person who has been authorised to conduct all the negotiations, and my negotiations with these two bodies, I may say, have been equal in extent to that with any of the other of the bodies which have been affected by the Bill. We have met and discussed and come to conclusions and come to agreements.

182. Is that very recent, may I ask?— Yes, during the last 2 or 3 months.

183. You are not aware then that the Incorporated Associations are looking upon this Bill, may I say with all respect, with some measure of suspicion regarding the administrative parts of the Bill. -No. I think the only thing, as far as I know, that the Incorporated Association of Architects requires is that the Council which is entrusted with the Register should be a Council of the nature of the General Medical Council. I have had no discussion with the Incorporated Association since it was decided to qualify the word "architect "; so all the discussions carried on with them were on the basis of the term 66 architect being restricted, not the term registered architect." I have not had any negotiations with them since, and as far as the administration of the Bill is concerned, I understand that they are satisfied with their inclusion on the Admission Committee and on the Board of Architectural Education. But with one of these bodies, I am not quite sure whether it is the Incoporated Association or the Faculty, I think it is the Incorporated Association, what they desire is a General Council similar to that in the Medical profession. On that point in giving evidence at the last meeting, I pointed out that there was no analogy between the situation which existed when the Medical Bill was put through and that existing now. When the Medical Bill was put through you had bodies of almost equal, or very closely equal status; you had the Royal College of Physicians of London; you had the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh; you had the University of Dublin with its degree in Medicine; you had the Society of Apothecaries and you had the College of Surgeons and the Society of Apothecaries in London. You have here a number of bodies, large bodies, influential bodies, bodies with old traditions, bodies with considerable membership; bodies with a very similar status. That being so, the

18 May, 1927.]

only possible way in which to deal with the register was to form a General Medical Council on which all these bodies should be represented, but there is no such situation to-day in respect to architects. There is only one body in the country which has any age behind it, which has got any tradition behind it, which has got any appreciable number of the architectural profession within it; and our view was that the situation, as far as architecture is concerned, is not at all analogous with the Medical situation, but is analagous with the situation with regard to Veterinary Surgeons. When the Veterinary Surgeon Bill was passed there was a Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons which occupied in connection with that profession exactly the same position as is occupied by the Royal Institute of British Architects with relation to the Architectural profession, and Parliament then said: that being so the position of this body being so unquestioned, this is a body to whom it is proper to entrust the register; and that is the claim we make for the Royal Institute of British Architects at the present day, but we have endeavoured to safeguard the interests of all other bodies by giving them such a position on the controlling and advising bodies, the Admission Committee and the Discipline Committee, as to safeguard those interests, and therefore while we do not agree with the view of the Incorporated Association, that there should be a General Architectural Council we are prepared and we have given those bodies a place upon those two advisory and controlling bodies which we think accords with their position in the profession. If, in the future, they attain such a position in the architectural world as to make them in any sense of the word comparable with the Royal Institute of British Architects, it would be open, of course, for that position to be modified, but at the moment we do press upon the Committee our view that the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects is the body to whom the actual maintenance of the Register should be entrusted, surrounded by the safeguards of these other committees.

184. Would you consider it fair to ask you to enlarge that point of objection that you have to the Incorporated Association on the actual question? Would you consider it fair to ask you to supplement that in as a brief a way as you

[Continued.

possibly can?-It is not my intention to say anything that in any kind of way can be construed as any sort of reflection upon that body. As far as I have met that body we have had very pleasant relationships, and the President and the Chairman and the Officials of it are all persons it has been a pleasure to meet; but I am bound to say that I do not think that they have at the moment established themselves in such a position as justifies a claim to form one of a General Architectural Council. I mean they have hardly been in being for more than a year or so. They are, themselves, an offsplit from another body, and we have had some difficulty in satisfying the rival ambitions of these two bodies. have not the least bit of feeling against them; we are quite willing to associate them with us in the question of admission and the question of architectural education, and give them every possible opportunity of safeguarding the rights of their members; but we think that that is all that their position at the moment entitles them to, and they have not yet got such a status and position in the architectural world as would justify them in claiming a place on a General Architectural Council. That is the best answer I can give you.

We

185. I am sorry to pursue this point, but I did want to put this aspect of it, if I may I want to try and find out quite what is the position of the Incorporated Society and the Faculty, I think you called it, what status they occupy in the architectural world, so far as this country is concerned. I understood you, Major Barnes, to say that they were of a wider scope-shall I put it in that way to be fair I interpreted it as membership, that is to say, they go on to include in their Association perhaps those people who cannot be well described to be persons coming within the meaning of this Act if it becomes a Statute. I am right in that assumption, I take it?-As far as I know anything about their organisation, I think their organisation includes not only architects, but other professions I think it includes surveyors as a distinct branch. I am speaking without absolute knowledge, but I think that they include quantity surveyors as a distinct section of their organisation, and in a certain sort of way they occupy a kind of intermediate position between the Royal Institute of British Architects and the Surveyors' Institution. Now the Sur

18 May, 1927.]

veyors' Institution has a section dealing with quantity surveyors. A quantity surveyor may be a member of the Surveyors' Institution. In the Royal Institute of British Architects we have no section which is a specific section for quantity surveyors. I understand the Incorporated Association of Architects stand midway; they do not, on the one hand, confine themselves to surveyors pure and simple; they do not, on the other hand, confine themselves to architects pure and simple; they are a kind of composite body which takes in both architects and surveyors, and we think that again in itself is another reason why they should not be regarded as a member of a General Architectural Council; they are not a purely architectural body.

186. Just another point upon this question, and I have finished upon this part. Do I understand that many of the Members of your Institution are also members of this Incorporated Association, that is to say, that they have a dual membership, membership with them and membership with your Institution?—I think I have no exact knowledge upon this point, but I should imagine that the members of the Royal Institute who belong to the Incorporated Society are a very small number indeed. I think there are a few Licentiates, and there may be one or two Associates, but I think the number of members of the Incorporated Association who are Members of the Royal Institute of British Architects might almost be counted on

187. Very small?-Very small.

188. Is there any particular reason why they should take up this dual membership, so far as you are aware? No. I do not know that there is. Of course, the membership of the Incorporated Association of Architects I understand, at all events I do not know what it is at the present moment-but in the last year or so it was membership, I believe, without examination in the first place, and I should say that the reasons which have induced any of our members to become members of that body must be purely local and personal reasons-I imagine so.

189. Now you are au fait, I take it, with the Second Reading debate on the floor of the House?-Yes.

190. And you may be aware that there was some expression of opinion by certain Members of the House, not necessarily opposed to the Bill, but desirous specially that the widest possible interpretation

[Continued.

or possibility should be afforded to working-class people to take part in the qualification ?-Yes.

191. I think you, yourself, expressed the opinion in your opening statement, which to my mind was a very fine statement indeed-I think you expressed the opinion that you intend to make the gateway as wide as possible, and I think Sir Alfred followed that point up, stressing the advantage of education, and the possibility of these advantages being given to the poor boy as well as to the middle and rich class boy. Now, whilst that sounds all right as an ex-parte statement, could you justify quite that there is an equal opportunity for the working-class boy as there is by comparison with the middle or rich class? gather from one of your statements somewhere that your own Association are good enough to give six scholarships. Is that each year that these six scholarships are given? These are six scholarships in being.

I

192. For a year?-They may run on for three years; it depends upon the need of the boy, I think.

193. Let me put it perhaps more particularly. Have you any idea as to the approximate cost that would be entailed by full qualification to come within the terms of membership of your Association, that is to say, you start the boy of 16, or 14 if you like, or 11 at the Secondary School going forward, and then graduating through the necessary stages of your architectural education. Have you any idea of what is the total cost of that? There are various opinions expressed, and I was wanting to know, if I could, what would be considered to be an approximate figure.-I do not know at the moment that I could give you a figure of that kind. Of course, if you assume that a full course takes five years, then you have got, of course, to maintain the boy during the five years. During part of that time he may be able to earn something, but you have to start off with that bed-rock, and the main cost of the boy would be his maintenance. As far as educational cost is concerned, that is to say, the fees at the schools that he would attend and the examination fees of the Institute, the last item is a comparatively small item. The examination fees at the moment at the Institute, taken over the whole of the five years' course, are about 15 guineas. A boy has got to be kept for five years, and one can form an idea as to what

18 May, 1927.]

that would cost. The only thing that is lacking for the calculation is the amount of the fees at the various schools. That, I am sorry, I cannot for the moment give you, but I will hand a statement in at some course of the Committee's proceedings, and give you that which will enable you to compute the whole sum. But what I should like to point out is this, that under this Bill what will happen is this: that a boy from an elementary school will be able to fully qualify as as an architect through the stages of an academic training, every stage of which can be supplied, as far as cost is concerned, by grants and scholarships. Now in the old days-in my days, for example-the main way in which you became an architect was that you went as a pupil to somebody, and that somebody took you for a premium.

194. That practice is not altogether out of court now, is it?—It is dying.

195. Quickly?-Oh, yes. In fact, I think one may say that the educational system of the Institute is practically killing it. If it was a question of finding a premium of £200, or £300, there was an absolute bar to the poor boy; but under this Bill this necessity of going as a pupil into an office and finding a premium is entirely done away with. As I pointed out on the diagram I put in, a boy may start from an elementary school and there is not a barrier in the road, there is not a gulf in the way between him and the goal which he is at, which is not bridged over or which may not be bridged over if educational authorities are fulfilling their obligation, which may not be bridged over by a scholarship or a grant, whatever it may be: so that the effect of setting up the system of architectural education in this country which this Bill proposes to set up, is, as far as modern resources will do it, and social organisation will permit it, to make an absolutely open road right from the elementary school into the position of qualified architect.

196. And there is no intention by the controlling authority under this Act to limit in any possible way the prospect of qualifying as an architect.-No. The representative character of the Board of architectural education, we think, is the best guarantee with regard to that, and if that can be strengthened we should only be too willing to do it.

197. Is it your view that the educational authorities of the country are at

[Continued.

the moment providing sufficient facilities in education on these lines? That is a very large question; at the moment we are not satisfied with it. At the moment I am Chairman of two Joint Boards, one being of Architects and Master Builders and the other of Architects and Building Trade Operatives, who have got this matter before them and are considering how we can extend and improve the facilities for education.

198. Regarding the question of professional or unprofessional conduct, my colleague on my left pursued that point at some length. Are your disciplinary powers to apply to conduct outside profesional conduct? I mean, for example, social or domestic conduct-are they intended to interfere?-No; it is "disgraceful to him in a professional respect."

199. But I wondered whether any wider interpretation may be taken of that, and say that perhaps socially or domestically one may get into difficulties, would that in any way prejudice his connection with your particular Institution? I should think not. You have got a lawyer on this who would have to think that if he thought that a certain act was disgraceful to an architect it would be an act of that kind which would be equally disgraceful to a solicitor, and you have got somebody from the Ministry of Health. I know, certainly, if I was on a Committee of that kind I should not interpret that phrase as meaning general conduct. The disgrace of it would have to be applied to his professional character, acting in a professional sense. I do not think there would be a danger of that sort.

18 May, 1927.]

Court? We have considered the point as to whether any lower Court could take it, and we came to the conclusion that there were very great difficulties and objections in the way. There has been no desire to put anybody to expense, but our lawyers have and Counsel advised us that no other Court could be substituted. Perhaps I might just say on that, that what is coming into being is a Professional Defence Department, which I think would look after anybody of that kind and bear the costs.

204. You promised that you would circulate a statement in answer to my question respecting the fees under subsection (4) of Clause 5. You have not circulated that statement yet, have you? -I have not handed it in yet, but I have it here to hand in; it will go in at the end of my evidence. Appendix No. 2.)

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

(Vide

205. Major Barnes, about that question of the cost of education, am I right that the County Council scholarships of Lancashire and Manchester, for example, and probably others are taken at the Schools of Architecture in Liverpool and Manchester that you recognise?—Yes.

206. And those County Scholarships are sometimes supplemented by endowed scholarships with their teaching in the University? Yes.

207. So he gets not only his County Scholarship but a portion of one of the endowed scholarships there?—That is so.

208. And that is independent; you consider that in allotting those scholarships the clever boy may get accumulation of scholarships up to a certain limit?—Yes.

an

209. A boy going to the Manchester or Liverpool School of Architecture gets the benefit of the public scholarship, or may do, if he is specially qualified?-Yes, he may do, and may in addition win school prizes.

Mr. Lindley.

210. May we have the number of scholarships referred to?-They are set out on page 19. (Vide Appendix No. 1.)

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

211. That is is independent of the County and City Scholarships?—Yes; I am only dealing in the précis here with those offered by the Institute.

Mr. Lindley.

[Continued.

212. I mean those given by the Educational bodies, the Schools? I am afraid I could not answer that question.

Mr. William Hirst.

213. I thought Major Barnes suggested a moment or two ago that he was going into that question, in reply to a question that I put. You remember I asked Major Barnes the number of scholarships, and I thought that Major Barnes was good enough to say that he was going to try and give that information?What I was going to give you was the cost at schools, and the scholarships I will add. If you will look at page 18 in my précis of evidence, you will see set out a diagram which shows the position in London; there is a diagram at the foot, paragraph 68; it shows that there are Junior County Scholarships which may take а boy from elementary school to a secondary school; and then Intermediate Scholarships which may take him to a polytechnic or school of art, and senior County Scholarships which may take him on to a Senior School of Architecture. The number of those will vary, of course, according to the advanced stage of the education, in any area.

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Chairman.] Colonel Moore was not here last time; I think we ought to give him an opportunity of asking any questions he likes of the witness before we call upon Mr. Tasker.

Colonel Moore.

214. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that I have read very carefully all the literature which I have received from the Royal Institute of British Architects and many other Associations, and i would like to associate myself with the remarks made by Sir Alfred Hopkinson at the last meeting, that the Institute has been so helpful, both in accepting and suggesting amendments to enlarge the scope of the Bill and make it more comprehensive and remove any possibility of reasonable criticism, that I find it difficult to suggest any alterations, except one small amendment. I do not know, Major Barnes, whether you will accept it or not. It is in sub-section (b) of Clause 5, paragraph 1. It says:

Every person who has gained a diploma in architecture from any university in Great Britain." It occurred to me that