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29 June, 1927.] Professor ARTHUR BERESFORD PITE, F.R.I.B.A.

ing classes of the school at Brixton or Regent Street.

1397. By permission of the Board?With the knowledge of the Board, and on the advice really of a Committee set up by the Board which went into the whole matter.

1398. With regard to the question of getting pupils, through your day school, to the Royal College, on this question of examination, which I gather you are not very happy about, very few people are, what do you seriously suggest as a means of overcoming it?-I would like to just say with regard to examinations in architectural design at the Royal College of Arts, awards were made once a year, on the advice of the Board of Visitors, and the Committee will pardon my saying that a good deal of my feeling with regard to the failure of examinations in design is due to the effect of a long acquaintance with those awards; they proved to be unsatisfactory, but that has nothing to do with the theoretical subjects at all. That merely deals with the art of design.

1399. You were talking about Boards. You suggested earlier that some few people take a deep interest, and so long as they did that was all right, but there were a certain number of ornamental persons. Does not that apply to the Royal Academy in every phase, both in architecture, painting and sculpture, and is it not overcome by the appointment of some one person for a given period to conduct the school?-I afraid I cannot answer as to other bodies.

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1400. What I wanted to get at-I am really anxious to do so, because I know your reputation-is what are your suggestions for overcoming these difficulties? -I see no way of overcoming the difficulty of the examination in the art of design. I would like to say that I do not think it is the concern of legislation at all; it could be well excluded; and you would have the qualification of the architect that the public requires effected in other ways.

1401. You will admit, I take it, that there must be an elementary standard to judge whether a person could or could not design an elevation, irrespective of taste?-I decline to do that. All the present furore over old country cottages and their beauty is an answer to that question.

1402. That of course again is a matter of taste, but in regard to general build

[Continued.

ings I think there must be a Plimsoll line beyond which you cannot drop.—It is exceedingly difficult to suggest that. In all phases of art it is very difficult to lay down data on which you can rely.

1403. But surely you did not find any difficulty with your students at South Kensington when you were teaching them? I was in the position to say to them: "I like this, and I will have it." I do not want Parliament to be in a position to say that to me.

1404. I do not blame you for it, for many reasons, but none the less, having regard to the wide variety of taste, if you have an Architectural Educational Board, surely there is some common factor which could be accepted for what I would call the Plimsoll line?-I wish you would suggest what that factor, or data or Plimsoll line may be, if I may humbly make the suggestion.

Mr. Gardner.] No, I prefer it to come from you.

Mr. Lindley.

1405. May I take it, that you have not only been teaching a considerable number of persons at present, but have also been considering the best way of educating a considerable number of persons who desire to become architects?Yes. I had to deal with over 1,000 students during the years I was at South Kensington and the same number at Brixton. It is a constant subject with

me.

1406. And you have paid some attention to what would in your opinion be the best methods to adopt for the purpose of educating these people?—Yes.

1407. In your précis you say that the qualifying examination for registration on the Board are not specified. Do you think, from your experience, that it is desirable to detail the qualifying examinations or the subjects of the qualifying examinations?-No, I do not, but I think the nature of these examinations bears upon the fact that Parliament is asked to make those examinations the test of registration. Parliament should know what the character of those examinations is, or should bear it in mind.

1408. Do you think it is undesirable that examinations and educational courses should replace the old apprenticeship system?-Wholly, yes.

1409. But there is no reason why the old apprenticeship system should not

29 June, 1927.]

Professor ARTHUR BERESFORD PITE, F.R.I.B.A.

continue side by side with a theoretical education ?-I should be sorry to distinguish between the two. It is the effective combination of theory and practice that makes a good architect.

1410. Do you think that the ordinary elementary schoolboy would be debarred from making progress in the architectural profession because of the requirements? He is debarred from starting. Before he can start he has to pass an examination in English Composition, Elementary Mathematics (Arithmetic, Algebra, Geometry), Mechanics or Physics, or Higher Mathematics or Chemistry, History or Geography, and foreign language.

Mr. Gardner.

1411. For the register?-Yes.

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1412. Or for the Royal Institute of British Architects?-For the Royal Institute of British Architects, a preliminary

1413. That is a different thing?--I think that was the question that was asked.

Mr. Gardner.] No. We are dealing with the composition of the register, and Major Barnes definitely stated when he was giving evidence here that the qualifying examination for admission to the register would be similar in form to the qualifying examination for admission to the Royal Institute of British Architects.

Mr. Lindley.

1414. It is perfectly true that Major Barnes did make such a statement, and that is my reason for asking the first question. I asked whether Professor Pite considered that it was absolutely necessary that the qualifying examination should be specified. I think it is, because, once Major Barnes said the examination would be made easier in order that the boy from the elementary school might stand a chance of qualifying, he never indicated in any way whatever how that examination would be made easier or to what extent.-I have a letter dated the fourth June setting out those facts (handing in the same).

Mr. Lindley.] Perhaps that will be interesting to the whole of the Committee, Mr. Chairman; I think we ought to have that letter read (handing the letter to the Chairman).

[Continued.

Chairman.] This is: "Royal Institute of British Architects, 4.6.27. Board of Architectural Education. Dear Sir, List of Examinations recognised for the Probationership. Attention is called to the fact that the Council of the Royal Institute of British Architects have decided to exclude from the List of Examinations recognised for the Probationership after the 31st December, 1928, the Junior (Honours) Local Examinations conducted under the authority of any University in the British Empire. The Council have also decided that History and Geography shall be made alternative subjects in the list of subjects required to be covered by the Certificates accepted in support of applications for registration as Probationer. The revised list of subjects is, therefore, as follows: English Composition, Elementary Mathematics (Arithmetic, Algebra, Geomety), Mechanics or Physics or Higher Mathematics or Chemistry. History or Geography. One language other than English. Yours faithfully, E. J. Haynes, Secretary to the Board."

Mr. Tasker.] It was that that I wanted to ask, whether we could accept any evidence from any witness as being superior to that which appears to be an authentic document. I understood Major Barnes was simply expressing an opinion.

Mr. Lindley.] Yes, I think that was so, Mr. Chairman. Chairman.] Yes.

Mr. Lindley.

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1415. But Mr. Pite, in the fifth paragraph of your précis you make a statement of some importance, particularly to the people who represent the elementary school. You say: My experience for many years on the one hand in the cases of talented art students at the Royal College of Art and on the other among students of the L.C.C. School of Building indicates that if Architecture is regarded as a gentleman's profession, demanding general education rather than as a practical occupation dealing with the Building crafts, the lower rungs of the ladder are missing." Do you seriously say that the lower rungs of

the ladder are missing or that they would be missing if this Bill became law? They are missing in the Institute of the Royal Institute of British Architects. You cannot go into the

29 June, 1927.] Professor ARTHUR BERESFORD PITE, F.R.I.B.A.

lower rung of their educational ladder unless you are equipped with the programme set out in that letter.

1416. Unless there is a professional status to begin with?-Unless you have an education status to begin with, you cannot begin the other.

Mr. Gardner.

1417. Would you consider that 8 Central School boy in London could comply with it?—I am afraid I cannot answer that question. I know we have to set up special classes at Brixton for boys who want to take the preliminary examination of the Institute, and supply them with special teaching outside our

own courses.

1418. But, that is, boys who leave the elementary school at 14 and take the extended course for two years at the Brixton school that you are referring to? -No.

1419. At what age then?-Any age.

1420. At what age do you take the boys at Brixton School?-I think it varies in the different classes in the craft classes. There are no boys taken under 16; they are kept on in the continuation classes of the other schools.

1421. At the Central Schools?—Yes.

1422. And do I understand from you that the boys who come in contact with you from a Central School, or it may be a Trade School, to your Institution, could not pass that examination ?-I cannot answer that with regard to every case; I can merely say that we have to set up classes for boys who want to take the Institute preliminary.

1423. Then you do overcome the difficulty ?-Yes.

Mr. Lindley.

1424. By sending these boys to special classes or special training?-Yes.

1425. In paragraph 6 of your statement you say that "Educationally the art of Architecture is the art of building. Building is concerned primarily with handicrafts." That is consistent with the statement that you made in answer to Major Tasker, I think it was, that the theoretical training should take place concurrently with the practical training?Yes.

1426. Do you know of any competent architect who has been trained in the way you suggest or advocate?-Might I reply, Sir, all the competent architects of my own generation who were trained before these schools came into existence,

[Continued.

and a good many subsequently, because the schools are not universal.

1427. There were many advantages in the old method?—Yes.

1428. On the second page, in the last sentence in the third paragraph, you say "The high fees charged in the schools recognised by the Royal Institute of British Architects are a difficulty in the way of reform." Can you tell us what those fees are?-They are round about £60 a year. I must be subject either to correction or qualification by the present authorities of the Institute; I know they have declined to recognise schools because the fees charged were not high enough— as to standard of fee.

1429. In view of the statements contained in paragraphs 8, 9 and 10 of your statement, do you think that the this Bill would passing of be an advantage to the community generally, or merely to members of the architectural profession in particular?—I do not think it would really be advantageous to either the community or to the profession. It would not be advantageous to the community, because it does not apply the test of efficient knowledge in building construction to everybody who builds; it only applies it to a group, and the group to which it applies it are called architects, and the Bill is unable to test their special quality as architects, because it is an art, not a science. I do not see that the Bill will either benefit the profession or the public.

1430. Is it likely to be inimical to the interests of the public?-It is likely to be inimical to the interests of the art of architecture, if it limits the scope of architectural education to examination syllabuses, and makes architecture a theoretical rather than a practical handicraft.

Mr. Gardner.

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1431. Does the Royal Institute British Architects' examination do that now? The effect of it is that it does it now; the effect of examinations is that it limits it now.

1432. Then how do you account for so many eminent men being allowed to, and successfully, construct so many important buildings?-I want to understand the question; I do not want to evade it. The question is, how do I explain how So many eminent men erect such interesting buildings, in spite of the Royal Institute of British Architects' system?

29 June, 1927.]

Professor ARTHUR BERESFORD PITE, F.R.I.B.A.

1433. No. Not in spite of it-in view of your suggestion. It very frequently happens sometimes in life that things are done in spite of it, but it is an acknowledged standard of examination, and everybody who acquires the certificate has got to comply with it. Now your theory is not to get the training on the practical side. How do you account for the success, if that is so ?May I remind the Committee earlier in the afternoon I heard an engineer giving evidence that the architect's work is practically superficial and he throws the construction problem entirely on the engineer. That is one of the effects of this system of training.

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1434. Do you think that applies to Westminster Abbey?-I thought you were speaking of living architects and present buildings. Westminster Abbey

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[Continued.

in the school and a year out, and an
examination afterwards.

1443. So that means we should get
about £300 a year?--Yes.

1444. You would say that would be a minimum?—An average figure.

1445. In view of that charge how are we going to meet the objection which was put on the Second Reading from the point of view of removing that very real obstacle to working class people?-Take the power out of the hands of the Institute and put it into the hands of the Board of Education.

1446. Entirely?-Entirely.

1447. And make them responsible?-Because you can get a very good education in architecture in a County Council school at about £3 a year. The fees of all the classes combined are about £3 a year. Evening classes, perhaps I ought were day classes, of course the fees would be relatively more, but there is a vast deal of difference between the fees charged in these rate-aided schools and the fees charged in the University Schools, and schools like the Architects' Association, which have no Government aid.

to limit this to. If there case in point; that was wholly built by craftsmen.

Mr. Lindley.

1435. You would suggest that instance in support of your particular theory?Yes; the whole of medieval art is craftsmanship.

Mr. William Hirst. 1436. Did you follow the Second Reading Debate in the House?—I read it through afterwards in Hansard, yes.

1437. I think you will agree with me that the principal opposition to the Bill on that particular occasion was a fear which you have given expression to here this afternoon, that this was going to be a "close" profession? Yes, you are quite right.

1438. Now, you have not made it clear to me precisely on what lines you would proceed in order to open out that particular channel. You were good enough just now, in reply to a question put by Mr. Lindley regarding high fees-you suggested £60 a year--did I understand you to say that? Yes. You might say between £50 and £60.

1439. And what period of time would that cover?-Three sessions at 20 guineas a piece.

1440. You say that would be the sum total required?—Per annum.

1441. And that would cover how many years to qualify?-Three to five years.

1442. Would you say that five years on the average is required?-No; four

1448. And that would be the very material amendment that you would submit would be required to be put into the Bill? Yes, in order to keep the fees down. If, in consequence of the Second Reading debate it is wished that the Architectural education should be as free as possible, it ought to be put on the same basis as the education of the technical rate-aided schools; then it could be got down to that figure. At present it is a professional education for professional men at professional fees.

1449. And you suggest that the class of training would not suffer by such treatment ?-I do not think it would.

1450. In no way?-I do not think it would,

Chairman.

1451. Did you hear Major Barnes's evidence on that point?-On the first afternoon, yes.

1452. He did not quite agree with you? --And I did not quite agree with Major Barnes.

1453. Apparently you are at opposite poles? I do not know about being exactly opposite, but I entirely disagree with his view. I do not think it is supported by fact.

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29 June, 1927.] Professor ARTHUR BERESFORD PITE, F.R.I.B.A.

1454. You do not think that it is an impossibility for anyone who has not means becoming a student of architecture and a successful architect?—I do not say it is impossible.

Colonel Moore.

1455. You made reference to the Council Schools having classes for architecture, that they could be got at for £3, or £3 10s., evening schools?—Yes.

1456. If the Royal Institute of British Architects were to recognise these Council Schools, there is no reason why it should cost more?-If the Royal Institute of British Architects could be compelled by Parliament to recognise these schools the difficulty would be met.

Mr. Gardner.

1457. Speaking of the Evening Schools for architecture purposes, you suggest that the fees are about £3?-I venture to confine that to evening classes.

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1458. You are aware, of course, that the day schools are in the neighbourhood of £26, for a three-year course. am not confining myself to architecture? -There is an architecture course only at the North London, I believe.

1459. I believe there is one at Westminster, Vincent Square. Still I venture to say that the fees are from about £25?-Yes.

1460. Do you suggest that the evening tuition given in four sessions of two hours is equivalent to three full years of two morning sessions of three hours, and one of two hours in the afternoon? -Yes; the difference is that in the day school the student works studio fashion; he is not listening to lectures all the time. In the evening classes he is really listening to lectures.

1461. And practising in the day time? -Yes; the day course combines the two.

1462. Is there anything in the Bill which you think would prevent the Admission Committee from admitting a person who went through either of those courses, irrespective of the Architectural Schools? The Bill, I think, leaves qualifications entirely in the discretion of the Council of the Institute.

1463. Since the curriculum of the Architectural Schools is in the hands of the Board, which is not controlled by the

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[Continued.

Institute, how can you arrive at that statement? I am only making the statement on my reading of the Bill, Sir. The Council of the Institute nominate the Board of Architectural Education and control them.

1464. You heard Major Barnes' evidence?-Yes.

1465. You heard him refer to what was called the educational ladder?-Yes.

1466. And you have, of course, the précis. Now do you deny that it is possible for an elementary school boy to win a supplementary junior County Scholarship at the age of 13?—I cannot speak of that, I do not know.

Sir Alfred Hopkinson.

1467. Seriously, is it not a fact that County Council boys go with a scholarship right through the University course? The ladder is an existing fact, and those scholarships of £60 are often held with others? Yes. There are very few of them tenable really. The fact of the matter is that the boy can earn more money by sticking to his job.

Chairman.

1468. Did you follow my speech on the Second Reading?—I read it with interest.

1469. Did you hear the instance I quoted of the Cardiff boy who was educated by the aid of grants and various other assistance, and is now holding an important appointment. in Glamorgan? Yes, it is quite interesting.

1470. And he was working in a mine. He gave up his time in the mine to work, with this assistance?-Yes.

1471. So that it is possible, you see?Yes.

Mr. Gardner.

1472. But, Mr. Pite, I am afraid you missed my point. I rather gathered you did from the last answer you gave to Sir Alfred. Are you aware of the fact that there are boys who leave elementary schools at eleven with a junior County Scholarship and go to Secondary Schools, or boys at thirteen who, with a supplementary County Scholarship go to a Secondary School to the age of 16, and if their bent is in the direction of architecture or building construction that they may obtain a senior County Scholarship which is tenable at any of the architectural schools free of charge?—Yes.

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