Senator PAGE. I do not want to cheese-pare about that. It does not strike my grammar exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. The next paragraph reads as follows:

That the Secretary of the Interior, under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, is hereby authorized to use for or advance to any individual Chippewa Indian in the State of Minnesota entitled to participate in the permanent fund of the Chippewa Indians of Minnesota who is blind, crippled, decrepit, or helpless from old age, disease, or accident, in the aggregate not to exceed one-fourth of the amount which would now be coming to said Indian under a pro rata distribution of said permanent fund: Provided, That any money received hereunder by any member of said tribe or used for his or her benefit shall be deducted from the share of said member in the permanent fund of the said Chippewa Indians in Minnesota to which he or she would be entitled.

Senator PAGE. Is that the matter that you had up under discussion last year, Senator Clapp?

Senator CLAPP. Yes.

Mr. MERITT. This item is justified on page 179 of the House hearings.

Senator CLAPP. I think, Mr. Meritt, that it ought not to be limited to the decrepit and helpless. I think you ought to have authority, within limitations that can not possibly ever exceed their share, to advance money to these Indians to develop their farms and buy horses or anything else.

Mr. MERITT. We submitted legislation two years ago, Senator, for that purpose.

Senator CLAPP. I know.

Mr. MERITT. Sufficiently broad to cover all classes of Indians. There was some criticism made of that legislation. The department is in favor of the proposition that you suggest. It should be sufficiently broad to cover all classes of Indians.

Senator CLAPP. Here we have in the Treasury of the United States millions of dollars standing to the credit of these Indians—

Senator PAGE. The Chippewas of Minnesota?

Senator CLAPP. Yes. Some of those Indians are inclined to go ahead and advance, and this money is lying there doing no good. It does seem to me that the department ought to have the authority, where they see that an Indian is disposed to do something-not to turn it all over to him, possibly exceeding his financial pro rata, but within limitations that are absolutely certain not to impinge upon the rights of other Indians-to take some of that money and help that fellow along. It is the only way.

Senator ROBINSON. What is the objection to it?

Senator CLAPP. I do not understand what the objection to it is. Mr. MERITT. I will tell you, Senator. The act of 1889, known as the Nelson Act (25 Stat. L., 642), requires the Chippewa fundexcept as to certain funds therein prescribed-to be continued in the Treasury for a period of 50 years. That is a specific law on the subject. There is now in the Treasury between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 to the credit of the Chippewa Indians.

Senator ROBINSON. Do they propose that it shall lie there for 50 years unused?

Mr. MERITT. Unless the Nelson law is changed that will be the case. We have Indians now in the Chippewa country who are absolutely in want, and we have no authority of law to relieve their distress because of that legislation.

Senator PAGE. Do they get interest on the fund?

Mr. MERITT. They get interest on the fund, and we have authority to expend certain other money for educational purposes.

Senator PAGE. Now, we have the authority for the deaf, dumb, and blind

Mr. MERITT. We would be glad if the legislation was broadened so as to include all classes.

Senator CLAPP. I can not see why this money should be left there. The problem of this Government is what to do with these vast sums that have been there, and to see to it that they are not finally squandered and wasted. Now, if we can take the Indian under the supervision of the department, and especially under the Indian Office, we should get down to this personal equation with the Indian as he is to-day and use a portion of that Indian's money to help him along, help develop him, even though he might lose some of it. It is training him to become the recipient of the larger sum when it becomes due under the treaty. It is just lying there, and the Indian is getting no benefit from it.

Senator PAGE. Yes; he is getting interest on the money at 4 per cent a year.

Senator CLAPP. It is being doled out.

Senator PAGE. That is the best thing you can do with a man if he can not take care of his money.

Senator CLAPP. How long will it take him so that he will be able to take care of his money? I could take your son, as bright as he is, and if I doled out a fund to him year after year until he was 45 years of age he would not know how to expend $5 a month judiciously.

Senator PAGE. When they passed that law they probably made an investigation a good deal more fully than we have done here. Senator CLAPP. No; we did not.

Senator PAGE. Of course, I do not know. If you give them this money, I imagine it would go very suddenly into the hands of your white neighbors there in Minnesota.

Senator CLAPP. Some of it undoubtedly would.

Senator ROBINSON. May I make the suggestion, or ask for information if you have a specific item that you would offer as an amendment for this provision?

Senator CLAPP. I have not it prepared.

Senator ROBINSON. My suggestion is that we pass the item now, and if you want to submit a specific item we will consider it under a specific proposition.

Senator TOWNSEND. I was wondering, if Senator Clapp's idea were carried out, when some of those old people got what was their share, what would happen to their descendants; would they still be on the roll and still be entitled to come forward and claim a portion of this fund?

Mr. MERITT. No, sir: that is provided for in the legislation here. The proviso reads:

Provided, That any money received hereunder by any member of said tribe or used for his or her benefit shall be deducted from the share of said member in the permanent fund of the said Chippewa Indians in Minnesota to which he or she would be entitled.

82833-15- -2

The suggestion of Senator Clapp, I believe, might be covered if you would add after the word "accident" in lines 6 and 7, the words and such other Indians as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper."

66

Senator CLAPP. That would be the idea exactly. Now, Senator Page, you say we considered all this. This treaty was made in 1889, before we had cleared up the question of individualizing the Indian at all. It was just a blanket provision that this money should remain there for 50 years. We have advanced since then-all of us in this country. We are leading the Indian along to better development of individuality. Some of them are going to fail; there is no question about that, but that is the only way by which you will ever put the Indian on his feet-taking each one by the hand and guiding him along. He will make some mistakes; he will squander some of his money. But the idea is, under any circumstances, only to advance what would be approximately one-fourth of his share of the present tribal funds, which will increase to some millions of dollars.

Now, I am not going to make a fight for it, but I think it is a very plain proposition.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the language suggested by Mr. Meritt, to be incorporated, be satisfactory?

Senator CLAPP. Of course.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, that language, after the word "accident" on lines 6 and 7, will be inserted; that is, "such other Indians as the Secretary of the Interior may deem proper."

Senator CLAPP. Now, this is not to go on the floor. It would be a mistake to take it there. If any member of the committee-if Senator Page does not enter heartily into the spirit of it, I do not want to force anything of the kind through the committee by a majority vote.

Senator PAGE. I do not say that it is right or wrong. I say you bring up matters of that kind that have been once considered and settled, and I have had sufficient experience here to lead me to believe that if you give an Indian an opportunity to get hold of his money the white man generally gets it very suddenly.

The CHAIRMAN. That is very true, Senator. The white men get most of our money. We can not save a cent out of our salaries. Senator CLAPP. Unquestionably, Senator Page, there will be a certain amount of loss and failure in this effort to lead the Indian to get on his own feet. We have got to accept that. The white man has had a similar experience for generations. But what are you going to do with the Indian? Are you going to keep the Indian forever receiving a pittance every month? I would not turn any of this over to an old Indian, but there are young Indians.

Senator ROBINSON. If there are young Indians who can use it to their advantage, I do not see why they should wait 50 years, or 25 years, before the balance is paid to them. I confess that I do not see the force in the proposition to withhold it from them. The great trouble, of course, is in the administration of it.

Senator CLAPP. I will say this for the department, that in all the years that I have been here there never has been, I think, as earnest on effort and I do not say that to reflect on their predecessors-

to develop the Indians as there is now. The department to-day is making an effort that never has been made to reach out and look after this Indian and that Indian as an individual and to help him along his way. Considering the Indian has had no experience, all this has had to be done at arm's length through subordinates, and I do think the department is making a wonderful success of it.

Senator PAGE. Senator, you and I spent three or four weeks once out in the wilds of Wisconsin. Let me ask you this question: Did your close contact with those Indian agents, through whom all this matter filters, increase your faith in the proposition of placing the funds at the disposal of those Indian agents?

Senator CLAPP. It did. I saw the Indian agent developing in his mind that relation of parent to child; safeguarding the fund of those Indians, until he incurred the bitter hostility of everybody who wanted to get something out of the Indian for nothing. I saw that man put up buildings for the Indians as carefully as you would put them up for a child who had not reached the age of discretion.

Senator PAGE. Well, they kicked him out, did they not?

Senator CLAPP. They kicked him out, but they are improving the service every day: they are getting better men. They have this problem on their hands. Now, I would not put this money where the Indian could take it ad libitum. I would not give him even all his share; but it does seem to me we ought to give the department the authority, where an Indian manifests a disposition to improve, to give them a little of it, not to exceed one-fourth.

Senator ROBINSON. That is the provision, is it not?

Senator CLAPP. Yes.

Senator TOWNSEND. Do you not have that authority now, Mr. Commissioner?

Mr. MERITT. No, sir.

Senator TOWNSEND. If that is true and we should adopt this proposition here, that would mean a precedent for all the Indians, would it not? I do not know of any reason why it should apply to the Chippewas and not to the others.

Mr. MERITT. We have that authority now as to certain classes of Indians, but there is a specific law which applies to the Chippewa Indians, and we can not use any of these funds in the Treasury, amounting to more than $5,000,000, without this legislation, except for certain school and administrative purposes, as allowed by the act.

Senator CLAPP. I do not want it put into the bill unless the wisdom of it appeals to the committee.

Senator ROBINSON. Suppose we pass it over for the moment. Senator PAGE. Can you so frame the language that in no case shall any of the Indians, aside from those who are old and decrepit, get more than one-fourth of the amount that is due?

Mr. MERITT. The language as it is now framed would limit it to the old and decrepit Indians.

Senator CLAPP. It would limit it to one-fourth, if we include the other Indians. If we should broaden it so as to include all Indians, and limit it to one-fourth, the money would be safeguarded under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior.

Senator PAGE. You need not postpone this matter, Senator Robinson,.if you think it is wise.

Senator ROBINSON. I am impressed that it is a good provision. The item was agreed to.

Senator CLAPP. I want to know whether it appeals to Senator Townsend.

Senator TOWNSEND. It would appeal to me, as far as I can see it now.

Senator ROBINSON. That is the way it is with me.

Senator TOWNSEND. I have not gone into it at all. I do not know what would be involved in the matter.

The CHAIRMAN. We will pass Montana.

Senator CLAPP. We have not got through with Minnesota.

INDIAN HOSPITAL, FOND DU LAC RESERVATION.

Mr. MERITT. There is one item which we would like to have inserted, and it reads as follows:

Section 8 of the act approved August 1, 1914, is hereby amended in so far as to permit of the purchase of a site in the city of Cloquet, Minnesota, and the construction thereon of a hospital instead of on the Fond du Lac Reservation.

The last Indian appropriation act authorized the construction of an Indian hospital on the Fond du Lac Reservation, which is very near the town of Cloquet. We found we could make arrangements with the town of Cloquet so that they will supply us with certain facilities that will very materially increase the benefit of the hospital. Senator CLAPP. That is water and sewage?

Mr. MERITT. Water, sewerage, and light. The site can be purchased for approximately $500.

Senator ROBINSON. How far is it from the reservation?
Mr. MERITT. It is only a few miles away.

Senator CLAPP. I think it is about 2 miles from the edge of the reservation. But let me say that the Fond du Lac Reservation is a very small reservation. The hospital is located there because it is on the east side of the State; there are some three or four small reservations up on the north toward Lake Superior. So it is not important. It was simply to get a locality that Fond du Lac is mentioned.

Senator ROBINSON. You think it ought to be located in the town? Senator CLAPP. I think so.

The item was agreed to.

RED LAKE RESERVATION.

Senator CLAPP. I want to say to the committee that the Red Lake Reservation has not yet been allotted. The department has under consideration a bill to take certain of the lands of the Red Lake Reservation that are timbered and apply the Menominee plan, under which there is more or less logging on that land, and this is allotted agricultural land. If that report comes in before we report the bill I am going to ask to have it put in the bill.