Page images
PDF
EPUB

(6) Salaries account for the greater part of the cost of Education. In 1913-14 the salaries paid in Public Elementary Schools amounted to £16,415,827, and the number of teachers employed was 163,640. In 1921 the amount paid in salaries was £38,885,000, and the number of teachers 167,205. The total charge for Elementary Schools in 1913-14, including Special Schools, was £16,563,242; and the number of teachers 164,868. The total salaries in 1921 were £39,335,060, and the number of teachers 168,758. In addition, on Secondary. Technical and Training Colleges £3,899,458 was spent, as against £802,204 in 1913-14; but the former figure includes a sum of about £1,100,000 spent on Technical and Training Colleges, and no information was given to your Committee as to what amount was spent on these items in 1913-14.

(7) A paper was also put in by the Board showing the cost per unit of average attendance in Public Elementary Schools for the salaries of teachers. In 1913-14 it amounted to 60s. 10d. per head, in 1919-20 to 120s. 10d., in 1920-21 to 151s. 10d., in 1921-22 to 162s. Od., and in 1922-23 it is estimated to cost 166s. 10d., while the average attendance has decreased from 5,397,450 in 1913-14 to 5,250,000 in 1921-22, and it is estimated that this will be the average attendance in the present year.

(8) A further paper was put in by the Board stating that the Government Actuary estimated that the cost of Pensions, on the assumption that the number of teachers as on 31st March, 1921, remains unchanged, and that the Burnham Scales are universally adopted and are permanently retained, will be in 1929-30 £4,402,000, in 1939-40 £7,667,000, and ultimately £9,584,000, and he brings this ultimate total up to £12,000,000 on the supposition of the employment of additional teachers for a complete system of Continuation Schools. It is understood that this supposes the employment in Continuation Schools of about 32,000 teachers at the salaries laid down in the Burnham Scales for Secondary Teachers, namely, a total salary bill for Continuation Schools approximating £13,000,000 per annum and averaging about £400 per annum. The number of such teachers at present employed is 600, and their salaries amount to £202.716. or an average salary of about £338

(9) The President of the Board attended before your Committee and referred to the vast increase in teachers' salaries, which are now 70 per cent. of this total cost of education, and stated that if there is to be an improved system of education there must be better qualified teachers. And to obtain these better inducements must be offered. He did not hold out much hope of a reduction in expenditure under existing conditions.

(10) The President also stated that the teachers were the employees of the local authority, that their salaries were fixed by hard bargaining between the representatives of the teachers and the local authorities, and that the taxpayer was responsible for 60 per cent. of the salaries. He further stated that when the scales were provisionally fixed by the Burnham Committee they were afterwards reviewed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and himself, and they considered how far the Board should pay grants upon the scales. Considerable reductions were, of course, effected, but, subject to the reductions and stipulations made, the Board undertook to pay grants upon the scales which were allocated for the period during which they were to run. It is to be noted that fifty-six local authorities appear to be paying less than the Burnham Scale.

Question, "That this Draft Report proposed by the Chairman be read a second time, paragraph by paragraph (The Chairman)," put, and agreed

to.

Paragraph (1) Amendment made in line 12 after the word "posts," by inserting the words "and your Committee hope that the reduction will be carried out as quickly as possible."-(Mr. Marriott.)

Another Amendment proposed in line 18, to leave out the words "He also informed us," and insert the words "The Committee draw attention to a statement by Sir Amherst Selby-Bigge (Mr. A. M. Samuel) instead thereof.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the paragraph."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 5; Noes, 5; whereupon the Chairman declared himself with the Ayes.

Ayes (5).

Colonel Spender Clay.

Captain Moreing.

Sir Philip Pilditch.
Colonel Stephenson.
Mr. Wise.

Noes (5).

Captain Viscount Curzon.

Major Christopher Lowther.
Mr. Marriott.

Mr. Arthur Michael Samuel.
Mr. De F. Pennefather.

Other Amendments made in line 20 by inserting after the word "week" the words "except to those officials with a salary of more than £250 a year (The Chairman)"; also after the words last inserted by inserting the words, "The witness explained that the regulations as to hours and overtime were not laid down by his department, but by the Treasury."-(Mr. Pennefather.)

Paragraph, as amended, agreed to.

Paragraphs (2) and (3) agreed to.

[ocr errors]

Paragraph (4). Amendment made in line 5, after the word salary," by leaving out all the words to the end of the paragraph.—(Mr. Pownall.) Paragraph (5) agreed to.

Paragraph (6) agreed to.

Paragraph (7) amended, and agreed to.

New paragraph (8) brought up and read a first time, as follows: "The undertaking by the Department to pay grants to the Local Authorities until 1923 in London and 1925 in the country, on the basis of the agreement entered into between the latter and the teachers consequent upon the Report of the Burnham Committee, renders effective examination and criticism by your Committee of this part of the Estimates impossible." (Sir Philip Pilditch.)

New paragraph read a second time, and added to the Report.

[blocks in formation]

New paragraph brought up and read a first time, as follows:

In 1913-14 the number of inspectors, including men and women, was 389, and in this year 401. The salaries of the men inspectors have been increased as follows:

[blocks in formation]

* To which increase bonus on the customary scale is added.

-(The Chairman.)

New paragraph read a second time, and added to the Report.

Question, "That this Report as amended be the Report of the Committee to the House," put, and agreed to.

Ordered to report with Minutes of Evidence and Appendices.
Adjourned to Monday, June 12th, at 2 p.m.

[blocks in formation]
[blocks in formation]

Secretary),

Sir HUGH

Sir AMHERST SELBY-BIGGE, BART, K.C.B. (Permanent ORANGE, C.B., C.I.E. (Accountant General), and Mr. F. H. OATES, C.B., (Principal Establishment Officer) called; and Examined.

Chairman.

1. (To Sir A. Selby-Bigge.) You are the Permanent Secretary of the Board of Education?—Yes.

1

2. I understand certain papers have been put in by Sir Hugh Orange. have not had time to read them. Are you conversant with them?-Yes, more or less. They are mainly compiled by Sir Hugh Orange, the Accountant General, and by Mr. Oates, the Establishment Officer.

3. If you have the Estimates here, perhaps I had better ask you certain questions on them. On page 3, under

Administration A (1)" Salaries, wages and allowances show a diminution of £62,716. Those salaries, wages and allowances, I gather, have nothing whatever to do with the teachers, but are the salaries, wages and allowances of the Department-the Head Office, I presume? That is so.

4. Can you give us any nope of that sum being reduced still further?-We hope in

course of time, as the reorganisation of the office which we are now effecting takes effect, to be able to reduce our higher staff pretty considerably. We look to make a saving in the number of higher posts. As is shown in the paper we handed in, in the early part of 1921 the Treasury expressed the opinion that the numbers of the higher staff of the Department should be susceptible of reduction, and, as the result of negotiations between the Treasury and the Department, the Board undertook to work to an ultimate reduction in the number of the higher staff of 21 units. Column 3 of the Establishment Return for 1922 (Paper No. 18) shows the amount of reduction which has already been effected. Column 4 shows the ultimate reduction towards which the Department are working.

Colonel Spender Clay.] Is there any value in our discussing this sub-head when we have not had the opportunity of seeing

1st May, 1922.]

Sir AMHERST SELBY-BIGGE, BART., K.C.B.,
Sir HUGH ORANGE, C.B., C.I. E., and Mr. F. H. OATES, C.B.

the papers which were only put in this morning?

Chairman.

5. I only saw them a few minutes ago. I think there is something in what the Honourable Member says. Perhaps I had better ask questions on it, and then the Committee will hear what I ask and the answers given. (To Sir A. Selby-Bigge.) I understand that in 1913 the number of officers of the higher staff was 99, when the amount of their salaries was £62,972? -Yes.

6. That number rose in 1921-22 to 110; that is only an increase of 11 officials, but the amount of the salaries was doubledit rose from £62,972 to £132,676, so it was more than double, though there was only an increase of 11 officers. Then in this year the number of officers goes back to the number which it was in 1913-14, but the amount of the salaries is £101,000 (leaving out the old figures), as against £62,000. That is a very large increase for the same number of people? There is still the war bonus in it. The details of the salaries scale for 1921-22 and 1920-21 are given in the Paper No. 18.

It

7. It is an increase of somewhere about 60 per cent., roughly? I can supply further details on this big return. gives the details of the salaries scales for 1920-21 and 1921-22, the number of posts in 1922-23 on those salaries scales, and the prospective reorganisation. I will add to that the comparable figures for 1913-14. That will then show you exactly how the thing comes about, and the effect of the war bonus upon the increase which you have noticed.

8. Is the war bonus still in operation?Yes, but at a diminished rate.

9. I am not quite certain if I am correct, but I was under the impression that it had more or less been done away with in some of the other Departments. Is that wrong? I think it is the same throughout all the Departments. It is on a uniform basis. It is set out in a note to the Estimates on page 8.

10. It is quite sufficient to say it is the same throughout all the Departments?— Yes.

11. I see the executive and clerical staff, which numbered in 1913-14 766 when the amount of their salaries was £126,000 (leaving out the odd figures), last year increased to 1,056, and this year is increased to 1,110-some 50 more officersand the amount of the salaries is £382,000, as against £126,000 in 1913-14. In

[Continued.

1913-14 the administrative expenses-that is for the salaries of the administrative staff at the head office were £206,000 and in 1922-23 they are £461,000. Is there any necessity for such a very large increase in that amount?-In our opinion, it is absolutely essential. The existing clerical staff is the result of the reorganisation of the Department undertaken in May, 1920, on the lines laid down in the Report, issued in February, 1920, of the Joint Committee of the National Whitley Council on the Reorganisation of the Civil Service. The scheme of reorganisation was approved by the Treasury in November, 1921, and the new establishment appears in the Estimates for 1922-23. The numbers and grading of the clerical staff before and after reorgar isation are shown in the attached Establishment Return, No. 19. Our existing Establishment is the result of a very careful scrutiny of the work of every Department and sub-Department of the Board, both by the Board's officers and by the Treasury Officers working in conjunction with the Board. I may say that we went through it in very great detail, and made such changes as we could to effect economy.

12. The Treasury went through it with the Board?--Yes. Some Departments they went through more or less independently; some others they went through with us, and others we went through for them and gave them the results. Our Establishment Officer, Mr. Oates, went through it most minutely with the Treasury Officers, and I think you may take it that every item of this has been debated with the Treasury, and not merely submitted to them and approved.

13. It is a very big increase since 1913/14-it is considerably more than double?-Apart from the improvement in the salaries of the staff, there is, of course, the new work which has been thrown upon us, for instance, the whole work of the Teachers Superannuation Act, which is very large and very meticulous work indeed, and the work of the ExService Students Scheme, which is not, however, in subhead A.

Colonel Assheton Pownall.

14. Is this sum of £461,285 for 1922-23 including or excluding bonuses?-Including.

15. It is rather more than double. The bonuses, of course, are given on the ordinary Civil Service scale? Yes.

[ocr errors]
« PreviousContinue »