what I am saying is the truth. There is nothing to hide. I do not know what you are all driving at; I will be quite frank. 3804. I will tell you what we are driving at, very quickly. You say you have nothing to hide, and nobody suggests that you have; and you want to know what we are all driving at?-Yes. 3805. At the risk of repetition I will tell you what we are driving at. When you are asked these questions about the opening of a joint account at the bank with the Navy and Army Canteens Board. you know that when a joint account is opened with a bank, the two persons or the three persons, in whose names the joint account is to be opened, usually go and lodge signatures with the bank, do they not? That should be done. 3806. The idea being that not one of those parties can withdraw documents or securities without the signatures of the three parties authorising it. Is not that the idea? That is quite right. 3807. And the question is put to you: When the joint account was opened on the 8th October, 1919, who went with you on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteens Board to open a joint account? Do you understand that?-Nobody from the Board. "You 3808. The question was put: said a few moments ago that you went with Mr. Hyde to the bank with the delivery orders ?-(A.) Yes. (Q.) Did anybody go with you on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board?-(A.) Mr. Pooley, I think, the accountant.' Pardon me. 3809. Will you please listen while I read this evidence? A moment or two ago you said nobody went on behalf of the Canteens Board. Now this question was put to you, and you were not asked for a definite yes or no. You could easily have said: "I do not remember," if you wished. "Did anybody go with you on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board?" and your answer was: "Mr. Pooley, I think, the accountant. I think that was the name of the gentleman." Then it is put to you, in order to help you: 'I want you to be sure, because this is not the sort of transaction which takes place every day." Your answer was "No. I think that was the name of the 66 gentleman." Then: "Did Mr. Pooley give his signature to the Bank of Montreal on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board?" and you said: "Yes." [Continued. -On the 8th December. I have apologised. I got confused. What is the good of beating me about when I got mixed up with the 8th October and the 8th December? I know exactly where I am. 3810. We are not beating you about, and we are not driving you all over the place. You said a few moments ago that you did not know what we are driving at. I want to tell you what we are driving at. I do not want to go all over it again. It is this: That when that question was asked you: "Did anybody go with you on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board? " you said, yes, it was Mr. Pooley, you thought. Then : "Did Mr. Pooley give his signature to the Bank of Montreal on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board?" and you answer "Yes," and you were asked again to make absolutely sure?-It is absolutely wrong. 66 3811. Let me read what was put to the Assistant Bank Manager at Ques tion 3569: "I think we have had evidence to the effect that it is absolutely incorrect to say that Mr. Pooley gave his signature. So that nobody gave their signature on behalf of the Navy and Army Canteen Board?" and the answer to that is: "So far as I have been able to ascertain." Now that answer is in distinct variance with answers given by you when you appeared before the Committee on the 28th June, and that is what we are driving at. Now your answer to it, which, if you like, is a proper answer, is to say that you confused dates between the 8th October and the 8th December?-I did. That is what I have done. 3812. Please do not say that you do not know what we are driving at, then? -You have spoken over and over again of this. You know very well that I have made a mistake and I have apologised. Chairman, 3813. Very well; your answer is that you made a mistake?-Yes, I got confused in the dates. 3814. I think I might warn you that if ever you come before a Committee of the House of Commons or a Court of Law you should be careful not to confuse dates in the way that you have done in this case.-I am very, very sorry, Sir. 3816. You submitted this document to the Committee: "Imperial Court, Kennington, London, S.E.11. 6th July, 1923. The Clerk of the Select Committee on Navy and Army Canteens, Committee Office, House of Commons, S.W. Dear Sir,—With reference to the evidence that I gave before the Select Committee on Navy and Army Canteens yesterday and, in order to make the ultimate disposition of the pâtés therein referred to quite clear, I should be glad if you would submit the following statement to the Committee: Total With regard to the sale to Lowther, it is impossible to say what price was actually placed upon the pâtés, as these were sold, together with a large variety of other articles, for a lump sum. Having regard to the date of the transaction, however, it is fair to assume that the price would have been somewhere between that received from Landauer in April, 1921, and that received from Luke In February, 1923. It has been taken as 10s. in order to obviate any suggestion that the comparison is being made on an unfair basis. In addition to the sales enumerated on the foregoing page, the contents of between 800 and 900 cases were sold by retail in the canteens. It is impossible to bring the prices realised for the particular pâtés into the comparison because these prices were retail, and would be subject to considerable deduction on account of distribution expenses, canteen expenses and overhead expenses, before they could be properly compared with the wholesale prices obtained from the merchants whose names are set out above. The actual retail price was 48s. per case. Yours faithfully, E. H. Cherry." You swear to that ?—Yes. (The Witness withdrew.) (Adjourned.) LIST OF APPENDICES. A. RELATING TO HISTORY AND FINANCE. (Paragraphs II-VI of the Report.) 1. War Office--Memorandum on the Disposal of Canteen ... ... ... ... ... PAGE ... 280 ... 282 profits 2. Expeditionary Force Canteens.-Memoranda of Conferences and correspondence relating to arrangements for taking over by the Navy and Army Canteen Board of Expeditionary Force Canteens 3. Expeditionary Force Canteens.-Report of Officials together with Balance Sheets, (October, 1920) ... 293. 4. Table handed in by Mr. RAE SMITH, relating to control of various canteen organisations ... ... ... 5. Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes.-Correspondence relating to the Distribution of Profits 308 309 318 ... ... 319 320. 8. Report by Messrs. SISSONS, BERSEY & Co., on Sir William Plender's Report, (Cmd. 1717) (1922) B.-RELATING TO CONDUCT AND ADMINISTRATION. (Paragraphs VII and VIII of the Report.) 10. Navy and Army Canteen Board.-Minute (September, 1919) relating to passages to Constantinople... 11. Navy and Army Canteen Board.-Report of Committee 12. Memorandum relating to the 1920 Committee of Enquiry put in by Mr. FISHER... 13. Navy and Army Canteen Board.-Minute (March, 1920) relating to appointment of Colonel Spencer ... 14. Navy and Army Canteen Board.-Cables (October and November, 1919) between Sir F. TowLE and Major VAN DEN BERGH 15. Navy and Army Canteen Board.-Correspondence (1919– 1920) relating to Sir F. Towle's release from his appointment 16. Navy and Army Canteen Board.---Correspondence and Memoranda relating to the sale of Meat Patties to Messrs. Hyde and Blake 17. Navy and Army Canteen Board. Correspondence relating to certain Delivery Orders for goods sold to Messrs. Hyde and Blake 18. Letter from Lord ASK WITH, Chairman of Committee of National Protest against Government Trading 391 ... ... SIR, I am commanded by the Army Council to acknowledge receipt of your letter of 8th May, relative to the profits of the Expeditionary Force Canteens and of the Navy and Army Canteen Board, and to forward herewith a statement giving various official announcements, etc., which were made at different times on the subject of the disposal of the profits of these Organizations. I am, Sir, Your obedient Servant, (Signed) H. J. CREEDY, The Secretary, Select Committee on Navy and Army Canteens, Committee Office, House of Commons. (ENCLOSURE.) I.-Expeditionary Force Canteens. (i) The Organization known as the "Expeditionary Force Canteens had its origin in a joint offer made by the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society, Ltd., and Messrs. Dickeson and Company, Ltd., to establish a Co-operative Society for the purpose of forming canteens overseas without profit or gain to either of the two firms. The War Office letter of 12th January, 1915, accepting this offer contained, inter alia, the following proviso: After paying all necessary expenses any profits earned are to be shall cease to carry on business it shall account and pay over to the Army Council all surplus assets that may remain after the discharge of all liabilities, such assets to be devoted, as already provided in the case of interim profits, to the general welfare of the soldiers in such manner as the Army Council, in their absolute discretion, shall determine." (ii) The first public announcement which can be traced as having been made on the subject of the disposal of Expeditionary Force Canteen profits is a Press Communiqué issued by the War Office on 10th February, 1915. This communiqué was as follows: "An organization has been approved for the supply to the British Troops in France of small comforts and articles such as they are used to purchasing in their Canteens or Regimental Institutes. The Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society, Ltd., with whom, for the purpose, Messrs. Dickeson and Co., Ltd. are associated, have consented to form this organization, which is to be called the Expeditionary Force Canteen Co-operative Society. Neither the Canteen and Mess Co-operative Society nor Messrs. Dickeson will take any share of the profits, the whole of which will be devoted to the good of the soldier and his dependants. Mr. A. W. Prince, of Messrs. Dickeson, is Honorary Director. The business will be under military control." (iii) On 8th March, 1915, the Financial Secretary of the War Office made a statement in the House of Commons to the effect that 66 the whole (of the profits) will be devoted to the good of the soldier and his dependants." (iv) In a War Office letter of 29th July, 1915, to the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, British Expeditionary Force, announcing the decision of the Army Council to form a Board of Control for the supervision of all canteens in France, it was stated that the aim of the Board "will be to ensure that all profits which are made in such Canteens shall be available for a Fund to be used for the benefit of the soldier after the War, or for securing such benefits to the soldier as may appear desirable before the conclusion of hostilities. The Board would, therefore, be responsible for all accounts and profits, the latter being held at the disposal of the Council." II. The Navy and Army Canteen Board. (i) The Organization, which came to be known as the Navy and Army Canteen Board, did not commence trading operations until January, 1917. Its ultimate origin, however, is to be sought in the recommendations of Lord Rotherham's Committee, whose report was presented to Parliament in November, 1914. (Cd. 7677.) In accordance with the recommendations of this Committee a Board of Control was set up as a supervisory body for the control of civil contractors who were at the time conducting canteens for His Majesty's Forces at home and in the various permanent stations overseas. These contractors were required to pay over to Commanding Officers a rebate of 10 per cent. of their daily takings. Of this rebate, not less than one-fifth was credited to a Central Fund, subsequently known as the "Central Regimental Institutes Fund." (ii) In April, 1916, the powers and duties of the Board of Control were transferred to the Army Canteen Committee, which continued, for the time being, to act as an advisory body only. Under Army Council Instruction No. 1388 of 13th July, 1916, the Army Canteen Committee took over the Central Regimental Institutes Fund which was to be administered I in accordance with the directions of the Army Council." It was laid down that the Fund was to be "primarily devoted to alleviate the sufferings of disabled ex-soldiers, the allocation of the remainder being notified in Army Order." (iii) In November, 1916, an Army Council Instruction (No. 2118) was issued stating that the Canteen Contractor system was to be terminated and that, for the future, the Army Canteen Committee (later Navy and Army Canteen Board) would itself conduct Canteens in the United Kingdom and at certain stations abroad. A loan was made to the Committee from public funds and it was announced that " after payment of administrative expenses and monthly rebate to units, and after making allowances for necessary reserves, such profits as may be made by the new organization will be primarily devoted towards repaying the loan and thereafter will be expended as may be directed by the Army Council for the benefit of the Army as laid down in Army Council Instruction 1388 of 1916" (see (ii) above). |