The herder in charge 77, and earmarked with a swallow fork in the left ear. of the sheep on March 23, 24, and 25, the dates of the trespass, was Augusteen Tizery. Please give this matter your attention. JAMES E. GURB, Forest Supervisor. UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, EUREKA LAND & LIVESTOCK CO., Eureka, Nev. GENTLEMEN: Reference is again made to my letter of April 10, your reply of April 15, and my letter of April 30. To date no further reply in this matter has been received from you. It is desired, and in fact, necessary, that we clear our records of this case in the very near future or refer the case for further action to the assistant to the solicitor. The evidence in this case shows conclusively that this trespass occurred as has been outlined, and you have been requested to submit a sworn statement setting forth your version of the case, but as yet you have not done so. It is hoped that you will settle this matter without further correspondence or delay and without the necessity of taking action as above outlined. The time will be extended to May 30 in which to receive from you a statement, and if not received on or before that date then all correspondence in this case will be forwarded to the assistant to the solicitor. Please give this matter your early attention. Very truly yours, JAMES E. GURR, Forest Supervisor. JUNE 3, 1925. The UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, Toyabe National Forest, Austin, Nev. GENTLEMEN: We inclose herewith our check No. 5409 in the amount of $48 to cover trespass as per your first letter of April 10, 1925. Yours very truly, SECRETARY AND TREASURER. UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, EUREKA LAND & LIVESTOCK Co., Eureka, Nev. GENTLEMEN: Your letter of June 3 with inclosed check is received. All payments must be drawn payable to the Federal Reserve Bank, Salt Lake Branch, Utah, and forwarded for credit to the district fiscal agent, Forest Service, Ogden, Utah, and be accompanied with a letter of transmittal. Therefore, please draw another check in lieu of the one issued on June 3. which is being returned herewith, payable to the Federal reserve bank as above indicated, and forward with the inclosed letter of transmittal. Your early attention will be very much appreciated. Very truly yours, JAMES E. GURR, Forest Supervisor. Mr. SARA. I have some property rights around the forest reserve, and some of our sheep graze right in there because we don't have any snow in the valley-only for a few days. Not so long ago I got a bill of over a hundred and eighty dollars for trespassing. I figured I had a right to my property, and I was not going to pay it because I believed the Forest Service should have marked the boundaries of the reserve so that I would know where to run our sheep and cattle. Finally Mr. Kimball fixed it up for about $80, or something like that. That is what it cost. I am right by the forest reserve all the time. I have made applications for permits, but I never did get it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you private property in the State of Nevada? Mr. SARA. Yes. All of it is in the State of Nevada excepting a little in California, but that is private. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion as to the proposed legislation looking to the control of the public domain? Mr. SARA. I don't know. That is hard to answer, because some years there is plenty of snow and other years there is not enough snow, and we have to go down south. If the Government controls it, the supervisor might be in Ely or some place else, and we would have to wait there to see him so that we could get permission to move on. If you have an old nag that goes about 20 miles a day, by the time you get back you lose half of your stock. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that the time for placing the stock on the range can best be determined by the local stock man? Mr. SARA. By all means. I believe that a man who lives on the ground knows what the stock needs. I think a man should be master of his own mind and should be able to run the business himself. If he stands for the Government or somebody else running his business, I think he is a poor business man, because he should know his business best, or better than the other fellow. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you famiiar with the Federal stock driveways in this State? Mr. SARA. Some of them. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. From your experience do the local stockmen use those driveways as they should? Mr. SARA. Pretty well, yes. The outsiders or transients come in and eat us out pretty much. On the average, I haven't any fault to find with the local stockmen. We try to respect each other's rights. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do not the local stockmen realize that it is to their interest to get along with their neighbors without trouble, and would they not get along on the range well together if it were not for these transient sheepmen? Mr. SARA. Yes. Take it at our home ranch. There are four of us. We have a small mountain for the four of us, I got mine about four years ago, and there has never been a word among our neighbors. Those ranches have been used for 15 years and they are in just as good a condition now as they were then, because every one of us knows what the other's rights are and respect them. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What has been your experience with transient, nonresident stockmen? Mr. SARA. Sometimes very hard. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you had any experience with them? Mr. SARA. I guess I have, if anyone in the State has. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What has been the effect of this upon your grazing? Mr. SARA. We have to use what they have left. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have they been using the range that you had previously used? Mr. SARA. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What effect has that had on the adjoining ranch property, and has it depreciated the value of your ranch holdings? Mr. SARA. We are all hurt a little. I don't care whether it is White Pine, Nye, or Elko County-we all have the same rights. It is pretty hard to figure the depreciation on the lands because there is no price on land at all now. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Has this condition been caused by these nonresident transients? Mr. SARA. Well, some. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That is all. Have you any further statement or suggestions to make? Mr. SARA. No. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Sara. We will take a recess until 1.15 o'clock. (Thereupon, at 12.05 o'clock p. m., Tuesday, November 17, 1925, a recess was taken until 1.15 o'clock p. m. the same day.) AFTER RECESS The committee reconvened at 1.15 o'clock p. m. Tuesday, November 17, 1925, pursuant to the taking of the recess. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order. Mr. Florio. STATEMENT OF A. C. FLORIO, CATTLE AND SHEEP RAISER, DUCKWATER, NEV. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Florio, please give the reporter your name and address. Mr. FLORIO. A. C. Florio, Duckwater, Nev. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you engaged in the livestock industry? Mr. FLORIO. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What branch? Mr. FLORIO. Cattle and sheep raising, both. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in that business? Mr. FLORIO. For myself since 1913. Sheep and cattle business, all my life. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you use the public domain? Mr. FLORIO. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you use the national forest for grazing! Mr. FLORIO. No. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement to make to the committee? Mr. FLORIO. Yes. I have been asking for a permit for the last four or five or six years, but I have never had the pleasure of getting it. I asked for a permit for 5,000 head of sheep and 300 head of cattle. They were on the White Pine division of the Nevada National Forest during the season of 1925; that is, last winter. It was denied for the following reasons [reads from a letter]: Upon your application you say that you own 300 head of cattle, 40 horses, and 7,500 head of sheep, which places you in class B. Nevada permits to class B applicants can only be allowed by purchase of private stock; in addition to this, you live outside of the zone line established by the White Pine division and the forest. The letter was written by Joseph R. Shallenberger, acting forest supervisor. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is the reason for their refusal to grant you a permit? Mr. FLORIO. I don't know. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Had you previously used any of the territory you asked to be allowed to graze on? Mr. FLORIO. No. I never have used that since it has been a forest, but if I am permitted to go ahead I can tell you the reason why I could put sheep on that forest without damaging it at all. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You may go ahead and tell us anything about it you wish. Mr. FLORIO. Up in White Pine Mountain there is a part of the country that is not used by cattle or sheep at all. By developing a little water I could range form 10,000 to 15,000 head of sheep up there, and in addition some cattle, and it wouldn't hurt the range at all, in my estimation. If the water is used right, it would be no trouble to run 10,000 head, and I asked for 5,000 head, and it was denied every time. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. The territory you requested the Forest Service to allow you to graze on is not grazed now? Mr. FLORIO. By neither sheep nor cattle. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe those sheep or cattle would injure the range in any way! Mr. FLORIO. No. Not a bit. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. It wouldn't injure the forage? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is the forage going to waste now? The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If you were given a permit to graze on this area, would it injure the rights of any other stockmen who are grazing in that part of the country? Mr. FLORIO. No. I have no intention of injuring the rights of any other person. I don't think that anyone should be granted a permit that would injure another. I am not asking that any man's property or rights be injured or harmed in any way. I am willing to go up on the mountain with any man-you would have to go on horseback-and show him where I can run sheep to good advantage and at a profit, and it would be a benefit to the Government. I could run sheep where they never thought of running them. There is any amount of water in the State that is not developed. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is all the property that you own in the State of Nevada? Mr. FLORIO. Yes. In Elko, Nye, and White Pine Counties, but right in White Pine County mostly, and in Nye and Eureka Counties, about seventy or eighty thousand dollars worth. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you any further statements to make to the committee? · Mr. FLORIO. No. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That is all. Thank you, Mr. Florio. STATEMENT OF J. J. GUBLER, RANCHER AND CATTLE RAISER, LUND, NEV. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gubler, will you kindly give your name and address to the reporter? Mr. GUBLER. J. J. Gubler, Lund, Nev. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gubler, you are the holder of a county office? Mr. GUBLER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What office do you hold? Mr. GUBLER. County commissioner. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you engaged in the livestock industry? Mr. GUBLER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What branch? Mr. GUBLER. I am engaged in both ranching and cattle raising. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How long have you been in the livestock business? Mr. GUBLER. Some twenty and odd years. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. You are therefore very familiar with the industry? Mr. GUBLER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Did you use the public domain for grazing? Mr. GUBLER. Yes; entirely. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement to make, or would you rather be questioned? Mr. GUBLER. I would rather be questioned. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How long have you used the public do main for grazing? Mr. GUBLER. About 22 or 23 years. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How did you acquire your ranch property? Mr. GUBLER. By purchase. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Had your predecessors used that range for any length of time? Mr. GUBLER. Yes. Ever since there had been a ranch there. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is the value of your ranch dependent on the right to graze on the public domain? Mr. GUBLER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Had your predecessor considered it so! Mr. GUBLER. I suppose so. That is all he depended on-livestock. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. When you purchased his property, did you believe that you were acquiring the same rights, that he had enjoyed, to the use of the public domain for grazing? Mr. GUBLER. There was no question about the rights at that time. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Without the right to graze on the public domain, would this ranch have any value? |