The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe, then, that any move by Congress which will tend to improve the condition of the livestock industry will be a necessary one? Mr. WHIPPLE. I do. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That will be all unless you have a further statement to make. Thank you for the statement you have made. STATEMENT OF R. T. SWALLOW, SHEEP AND CATTLE RAISER, SHOSHONE, NEV. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you engaged in the livestock industry? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes; sheep and cattle both. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you use the public domain? Mr. SWALLOW. Partly, but mostly the national forest. I use the public domain in the summer. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you in favor of a law being enacted which will legalize your right to the use of grazing in the national forest? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. That is, where we are not tied down. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you realize there is no federal law today which legalizes the right to grazing on the national forests, and that the users of the forest for grazing do so at the sufferance of the Government? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Would you favor legislation legalizing your rights to graze in the national forests? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Has there been any advantage gained by the segregation of cattle and sheep on the national forests by the Forest Service? Mr. SWALLOW. Some, I think. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you think there should be more local control in matters affecting grazing of livestock on the national forests? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you favor legislation that would provide for this? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. We should have some appeal to adjust our differences. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you think there should be an independent, disinterested tribunal which could settle such differences as may arise between the users of the national forests and the Forest Service officials? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. And have such controversies settled by that tribunal in preference to the Forest Service? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is there an advisory board in your section? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. We are generally called together by the board They go over the ground and pass on regulations more or less, and as a rule if the board's recommendations don't happen to suit the Forest Service officials, they pass it over the board's head. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In case of a controversy between the advisory board and the Forest Service officials, who wins? Mr. SWALLOW. The Forest Service officials. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe there should be more local control of such matters? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you aware that the district of the Forest Service which controls the national forests in Nevada, also has supervision of the national forests in two other states,-Idaho and Utah? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe it is possible for one man in charge of that enormous territory to give it the proper attention! Mr. SWALLOW. No, because the conditions are so much different in Idaho and Utah than in the State of Nevada. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that we should have an independent State unit rather than be a part of the unit of three States? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion in regard to the opening date of the national forests for grazing? Mr. SWALLOW. The seasons have something to do with that. Sometimes the opening date interferes a great deal with the handling of stock. At times it could be opened a little earlier than at others. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What are the regulations of the Forest Service in regard to the opening date in this section? Mr. SWALLOW. From the first of June or the first of July, but you have so many months in the forest. If you go in on the first of July you have to come off on the first of September, or something like that. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What has been the custom in years gone by? Mr. SWALLOW. If you go in on the first of May you have to come off on the first of September as a rule, before the forest is crowded. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Does this regulation compel you to herd your stock more than you would otherwise in keeping it off the national forest? Mr. SWALLOW. In some respects. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is that injurious to the stock? Mr. SWALLOW. Not always, but sometimes it is. When we have a good season it is not injurious, but in a dry season it sometimes is The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that if this matter were left to the local stockmen that they would so handle it that it would be of more advantage to them and also to the range? Mr. SWALLOW. I couldn't say. Sometimes it is hard to get a community to agree on that. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If the matter were left to the local stockmen would they handle it so the range would not be damaged? Mr. SWALLOW. I don't know about that either. I believe they should have something to say about it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is the result in this county of cuts made by the Forest Seervice in the number of stock allowed to graze on the national forest? Mr. SWALLOW. It has depreciated the value of our ranches. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have these cuts been frequent and large? Mr. SWALLOW. I think they have. Some of the smaller interests haven't had the cuts that we have had. The ACTING CHAIRMANN. What has been the result of these cuts? Mr. SWALLOW. It has cut out class A applicants to make room for new beginners. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is the value of the ranch property depreciated if the right to graze on the national forest is impaired or lost? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Does a cut in your permit depreciate the value of your ranch property to that extent? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What effect does this have on the owner of the ranch? Mr. SWALLOW. It hurts his pocketbook. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Does this have the effect of increasing the cost of production of livestock? Mr. SWALLOW. Some; yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Is the ultimate consumer of livestock products affected by this? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. If it costs more to raise livestock, it is bound to increase the cost to the ultimate consumer. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Have you a further statement to make on this matter? Mr. SWALLOW. Not any more than I have said, but I might say that the Government has given us certain rights, and when those rights are interfered with it is equivalent to taking some of those privileges away from us and depreciating the value of our real estate. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you know of the increases of grazing fees that have taken place in a number of years gone by? Mr. SWALLOW. Some. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the efforts made by the Forest Service to increase grazing fees? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you in favor of that? Mr. SWALLOW. No. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Would a material increase in these fees result in an increase in the cost of production of livestock? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. And you think the ultimate consumer would have to pay for it? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you think the Government should make a profit from grazing fees? Mr. SWALLOW. No. 43213-25-PT 15-25 The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you think the grazing fees should cover the cost of administration and improvements to the range. with no profit to the Government? Mr. SWALLOw. I don't think the Government should commercialize the range and make a profit from it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with various articles which have been published in newspapers and magazines recently regarding increased fees for grazing to the stockmen who use the national forests? Mr. SWALLOW. Some. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Referring to the public domain-are you in favor of Government control? Mr. SWALLOW. I am, if we have it so the public domain will be handled in a different way than the national forest is. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that if such legislation was enacted there should be more local control among the users of the range than there is with those using the national forests? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe in having it leased on an area basis or on a per capita basis? Mr. SWALLOW. On an area basis. I feel I would rather have it that way than on a per capita basis, but I don't believe that would be the best for the majority of the users. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. In case such legislation were passed. would you favor a local option clause, giving the people in each subdivision or district the right to decide whether or not they wanted to come in under the operation of the law or not? Mr. SWALLOW. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. That will be all, unless you have some further statement to make to the committee. Mr. SWALLOW. I have no further statement to make. STATEMENT OF A. B. GARDNER, CATTLE RAISER, SUNNYSIDE, NEV. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Will you give your name and address to the reporter? Mr. GARDNER. A. B. Gardner; Sunnyside, Nev. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you engaged in the livestock industry? Mr. GARDNER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN, What branch? Mr. GARDNER. Cattle business. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you use the public domain for grazing? Mr. GARDNER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. And the national forest reserve? Mr. GARDNER. Yes. I am using more of the forest reserve at the present time. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are you in favor of legislation that will legalize you rights to grazing on the national forest reserve? Mr. GARDNER. Yes. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you realize that the law creating the national forest reserves provided for the protection of timber and watersheds and contained no provision for grazing? Mr. GARDNER. Yes; but I feel that the Forest Service is an assistance to the cattleman and sheepman. I am a firm believer in the national forest reserve system. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Will you make a statement in your own way regarding these matters, or would you rather be questioned? Mr. GARDNER. I would just as soon answer questions. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Has the administration of the Forestry Bureau been satisfactory in your locality? Mr. GARDNER. I know it has. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What has been your experience with the advisory boards? Mr. GARDNER. We have had only a couple of meetings, and I think they have been all right as far as I know. We have gotten the best that we could under the conditions. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you know of any difficulties in your locality between the officials of the Forestry Bureau and the stockmen? Mr. GARDNER. Really, there have not been any words between us at all. I am not speaking of the people in the other section of the country. Everything has been all right in our locality. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you believe that there should be an independent and disinterested tribunal created for the purpose of hearing and determining controversies that may arise between the users of the national forests and the Bureau of Forestry? Mr. GARDNER. I think the national forest officials should handle those matters themselves. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is your opinion as to the proposed legislation proposing a control of the public domain? Mr. GARDNER. I am in favor of it. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. If such legislation were passed would you favor leases on an area basis or on a per capita basis? Mr. GARDNER. I think an area basis would suit the stockmen down in our section of the country, but I don't know really under the present existing conditions that it would make any particular difference. I am perfectly satisfied with the way it is going now on the national forest reserve. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Are the stockmen in. your locality interested in the question of transient livestock grazing? Mr. GARDNER. We are all interested very much. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What can you say in that regard? Mr. GARDNER. I will say that it will be only a very short time until we will be out of the cow business and the sheep business. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. What is the cause of this condition? Mr. GARDNER. Overgrazing. We are subject to drought, and we are overgrazed with transient stock. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do you know whether these transient sheepmen pay taxes in this county or not? Mr. GARDNER. I don't believe they are paying any taxes in our section. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. Do they own property? Mr. GARDNER. No. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. How long has this condition been existing? |