Senator ODDIE. Do you think that the benefits that come from the other matter that we just mentioned should be offset by these later rules and regulations? Mr. WALSH. No. Senator ODDIE. That is all, Mr. Walsh. Thank you for coming here. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dieringer. STATEMENT OF GEORGE N. DIERINGER, CATTLE RAISER, AUSTIN, NEV. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dieringer, will you give your name and address to the reporter. Mr. DIERINGER. George N. Dieringer, Austin, Nev. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dieringer, are you engaged in the livestock business? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. What branch of the livestock business? Mr. DIERINGER. Cattle. The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in the livestock business? Mr. DIERINGER. Thirty-eight years. The CHAIRMAN. In the same locality? Mr. DIERINGER. The same locality all the time. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze within the confines of a national forest? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze on the public domain? Mr. DIERINGER. Some; yes. Scattered around there. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dieringer, would you be in favor of Congress enacting a law legalizing your right to graze within the boundaries of the national forest? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; I think so. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze on a cattle reserve in common with your neighbors? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; where I graze we have altogether cattle and no sheep. The CHAIRMAN. You have a certain area set aside for the grazing of cattle? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; a certain area we are supposed to turn in there from such a canyon to another canyon. Of course, we let them scatter from there after we have all gone in. We drive in there, and then of course we scatter from there on, you understand. The CHAIRMAN. You stated that you use the public domain? The CHAIRMAN. Would you favor the enactment of a law providing for the leasing of the public domain for the purpose of grazing livestock? Mr. DIERINGER. I think it would be a good idea, yes. The CHAIRMAN. If Congress should enact such a law do you think that it should carry an optional provision leaving it to the stockmen within a natural grazing district to decide as to whether they wanted to lease or not lease? Mr. DIERINGER. We held a meeting over there and decided on this, that we thought we could get along better this way: Two forest men, two stockmen, and one noninterested party; that we would get along a whole lot better than we do now. The CHAIRMAN. That is, for the purpose of settling any controversies? Mr. DIERINGER. Settling any difficulties or questions, anything in the forest reserve, and making by-laws, and so on. The CHAIRMAN. And that group would decide as to whether you wanted to lease from the public domain or not? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; that is what we decided. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dieringer, if you and your neighbors were granted a lease to an area of the public domain in which you had the exclusive right to graze, would that be an incentive for you to graze it in the most proper way, having in mind the increase of forage thereon? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; I think so. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think that you could improve the area if you had such control over it, I mean the grazing? Mr. DIERINGER. I think we would do it fully as well as we have been doing, fully as well and probably better. The CHAIRMAN. Has the public domain with which you are familiar been overgrazed? Mr. DIERINGER. No; I couldn't say so. The CHAIRMAN. It has not been overgrazed? Mr. DIERINGER. No; it has not been overgrazed. We are getting along pretty well as we are now. The CHARMAN. Are you troubled with transient livestock men bringing their livestock in and turning it on to the range that is used? Mr. DIERINGER. Not at all. The CHAIRMAN. That is all. Senator ODDIE. What is your experience with the advisory boards, Mr. Dieringer? Mr. DIERINGER. With the advisory boards? Senator ODDIE. Yes; you have one in your district? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; we have one. I am the chairman of the board. Senator ODDIE. In case of a disagreement between the advisory board and the forest supervisor, what is the result? Mr. DIERINGER. We generally lose out. Senator ODDIE. The stockmen, or the advisory board, lose out? Mr. DIERINGER. They generally lose out, yes. Senator ODDIE. Has the advisory board been consulted as to the date of putting cattle on the range in the spring? Mr. DIERINGER. They have not been. They naturally gave the date to us, and they said we couldn't change it. Senator ODDIE. You were told the date? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. Senator ODDIE. And you are not consulted as to the date? Mr. DIERINGER. I think we were further informed that if we turned out before that it would be a trespass. They are talking trespass pretty strongly in our district. Senator ODDIE. That is, a threat of trespass if you should turn out ahead of that time? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. Senator ODDIE. Would that mean your being called into court and forced to pay a fine possibly? Mr. DIERINGER. As I understand it, there have been a few small trespass cases. They held it in the court, and the stockmen paid it; that is the best way out. Senator ODDIE. Do you know of any cases where it has resulted in a cut in the number of stock allowed to put on the range? Mr. DIERINGER. No; I believe not. Senator ODDIE. If this matter of deciding the date of turning the cattle out were left to the stockmen themselves would it be better handled? Mr. DIERINGER. I think so. Just as I say, if we had two stockmen, two Forest Service men and a noninterested party we would get along, I think, better and understand it better. Senator ODDIE. Is the condition of the range affected more by the amount of precipitation than by the amount of grazing on it from year to year? Mr. DIERINGER. I don't think it is overstocked. Senator ODDIE. What I mean is, has the amount of moisture more to do with the condition of the range than the amount of grazing on it? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; moisture has all to do with it. Of course you can overgraze it, but I don't think it is overgrazed. It might run along for two years or three years and we would have a dry season and it would not be as choice. Senator ODDIE. Do you know of any cases where the opening date has been decided in a dry season for the following season? Mr. DIERINGER. They don't make any difference in regard to that. Senator ODDIE. Is the opening date decided some time in advance of the opening date? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; that is, we get notified. Senator ODDIE. Could local stockmen on the ground determine better right at the time whether the stock should be turned out then or held? Mr. DIERINGER. Why, yes; they know best-would know best. Senator ODDIE. Is two weeks' leeway which is allowed to the supervisor enough? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; I think that is enough. Senator ODDIE. What has been the average time that you have put your stock out in years gone by? Mr. DIERINGER. In years gone by about the 1st of April. Senator ODDIE. About the 1st of April. And what is the date now of putting the stock out? Mr. DIERINGER. The 1st of May on one range, and on the other range across the valley it is the 15th of May. Senator ODDIE. In one case it is a month later and in the other case it is a month and a half? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. Senator ODDIE. As the Forest Service has advanced the opening date in one section of the State a month, and it has advanced the opening date in another section a month and a half, and it has allowed the supervisor a leeway of two weeks only to change it, do you think that the leeway given the forest supervisor is enough? Mr. DIERINGER. They should give him more. Senator ODDIE. Is two weeks too short a time? Mr. DIERINGER. The two weeks is too short a time, yes. Two weeks is all right some times, but I think sometimes he should have more. Senator ODDIE. What will be the effect on the livestock industry if the grazing fees are raised? Mr. DIERINGER. There would be so much more cost. During the last three years I contend-maybe four years there has been no surplus; when a man had paid his bills there would be no surplus left from the sale of the stock. Senator ODDIE. Has there been a loss in operation? Mr. DIERINGER. I think if a man is square with the world he has pulled out about as good as he could. Senator ODDIE. Has the stockman made as much as any business man should make on his investment in the last few years? Mr. DIERINGER. I guess they calculate on making more than we do anyway. Senator ODDIE. Has the increased fee resulted in an increased burden to the stockman? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. Senator ODDIE. Do you think that the Government should make a profit on the fees and turn that profit into the Federal treasury? Mr. DIERINGER. I don't think so. Senator ODDIE. Should the Government do anything wilfully that will injure a business like the cattle business? Mr. DIERINGER. No, I don't think so. Senator ODDIE. Are these arbitrary rules and regulations of the Government injurious to the business? Mr. DIERINGER. I think so, the way they are now. Senator ODDIE. That will be all, Mr. Dieringer, unless you have something further. Mr. DIERINGER. You were asking Mr. Walsh how much money was spent on that trail. Senator ODDIE. Do you know the amount that the Forest Service has spent on that trail? Mr. DIERINGER. The supervisor told me $34,000. I said to him, "What are you building that trail on the summit for? It is above the timber line. There is no timber way up that way." He said, "Well, if we don't take it and use it somebody else will use it, and we might as well take it and use it." He said that right in open meeting. Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that the Government should continue or encourage a policy of using the taxpayers' money in that way? Mr. DIERINGER. No, I don't think anybody's money should be spent the way it has been spent on that trail. Senator ODDIE. Is it possible in your opinion that the forest trees in that forest reserve could be burned? Mr. DIERINGER. You would not burn much of it. You might build a fire, but you would have to stir that up pretty well. Senator ODDIE. Is it possible that any damage could result from fire in that forest reserve? Mr. DIERINGER. You could burn out a small patch, but it would not travel far, because timber doesn's stand thick enough for that. Senator ODDIE. Is there any commercial timber in that forest reserve? Mr. DIERINGER. No. Senator ODDIE. What price do you have to pay for lumber for your buildings in that forest reserve, roughly? Mr. DIERINGER. Do you mean timber? Senator ODDIE. Lumber that you buy, commercial timber, boards. Mr. DIERINGER. Oh, that is shipped in there, do you mean? Senator ODDIE. Yes. Mr. DIERINGER. I don't know offhand now, but I think about S cents. Senator ODDIE. Eight cents a foot? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; somewheres along there. Senator ODDIE. That is about $80 a thousand feet? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes; that is coarse lumber. Senator ODDIE. Is it possible to produce any timber in that district from the forest trees? Mr. DIERINGER. No; they are too small. Senator ODDIE. Do you realize that the cost of producing cattle in the last few years is higher now than it was several years ago! Mr. DIERINGER. Oh, yes; the cost has increased. Senator ODDIE. And in that time has the price of cattle dropped! Mr. DIERINGER. It has dropped until this year. The price is pretty fair this year. Senator OppIE. During this time has the price of lumber that you have to buy increased? Mr. DIERINGER. Oh, yes; a good deal. I think about 3 cents & foot. Senator ODDIE. That is all. Mr. BOWDEN. I would like to ask you, Mr. Dieringer, forest reserve you graze. Mr. DIERINGER. Toyabe. Mr. BOWDEN. What is the size of your permit? Mr. DIERINGER. The amount of cattle I have got? Mr. BOWDEN. Yes. Mr. DIERINGER. The cattle and horses, 250. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you a 10-year permit? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes, I have a 10-year permit now. on what Mr. DIERINGER. Well, I don't know. I don't think there is an land around where a man could make any living in our section 640-acre-sections that are available. There is nothing there that man could make a living on. Representative ARENTZ. Mr. Dieringer, do you know of any that money could be spent to good advantage other than on trails the Toyabe Forest Reserve? Mr. DIERINGER. Yes. Representative ARENTZ. In what way? Mr. DIERINGER. We have a bunch of wild horses over there ne probably a thousand, some say more, and we are trying in some w through our supervisor, who is present, to dispose of those hors He favors the plan of running them in. I don't think we are r ning many horses, but we are going to try it. We have tried the |