Now, isn't it a fact that because of this ownership of water and because of the public domain between these holdings, if you had a leasehold on this land over a certain term of years it would put you in the same position regarding the public domain as you are now in regarding the forest reserve on your privately owned lands? I think possibly we have the same viewpoint regarding the leasing of the public lands, but we do not understand each other. You have stated that you want to be let alone, you want to be able to use this public domain, but would it not be a great deal better, Mr. Taylor, if in using that public domain you had a lease upon it for a term of years and no one else could use it?

Mr. TAYLOR. No, it would not. I have invested in there-it is not the water alone that we have appropriated; we have appropriated the land upon which the water flows, from a quarter of a mile to be perhaps two or three miles wide. There is nothing there but what we call a bald ridge, and we have bought that land figuring that we would enjoy that bald ridge. We have paid more, in other words, for the land upon which that water flows than what it is actually worth. We have in reality bought and paid enough for that to pay for the entire thing. If the Government was doing the right thing they would say, "Take the balance.'

Representative ARENTZ. That is just exactly the point I want to get at. In some localities in this State they do not enjoy the freedom from outside interference that you do, and they do not enjoy that freedom from transient stock that you do in your section of the country. I can see half a dozen men in this room who live in territories in this State where they are troubled by transients, who own this land and have paid for this land but who do not enjoy privileges on those so-called ridges.

Mr. TAYLOR. May I ask you what the land consists of? Is the land already fenced, or is it just simply domain that they figure belongs to them?

Representative ARENTZ. I believe it is the same sort of land that you have there-public domain. But you are in a peculiar position; you have water, you control the water, and you should be entitled to the land between the streams; but this same condition does not exist all over the State. In certain sections of this State we have thousands and tens of thousands of head of sheep running over the land not belonging to the owners of these water sources.

by.

Mr. TAYLOR. What are they doing?

Representative ARENTZ. The transient sheep eat it up as they pass

Mr. TAYLOR. Why do you let them trespass? Do you suppose any band of sheep is going to tresspas in that country in there? Not by a jugfull. The trouble with you people is, you haven't enough investment. You have a flyspeck here and there, and that is all about every 20 miles.

Representative ARENTZ. I think we have the same point of view but I merely want to get your idea.

Mr. TAYLOR. Well, you have it.

Representative ARENTZ. Yes; you have expressed yourself in the way that I like to hear a man express himself, and I have your point of view. I am not a member of this committee, but I do want to g your viewpoint and the viewpoint of other men, and your situation is not the same as it is in other sections of this State.

Mr. TAYLOR. Perhaps not.

Representative ARENTZ. And if this bill is passed allowing you the option to come in or not as you please, it won't hurt you?

Mr. TAYLOR. It won't hurt-the only thing, it leaves the possibility of perhaps getting a majority and putting you right in the toils too, putting you in the cage. That is all. I would much rather see these people keep out and leave us alone. To go to work and put this thing all under control-I don't know where we would be; I don't know that I would want to live in the State, to belong to it at all.

Representative ARENTZ. That is just exactly what I want to hear. I want to get your point of view, and I have gotten it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Taylor, if the next Congress should prove to be in sympathy, from your viewpoint, with those owning the land, or those best entitled to control it, would you prefer to have Congress enact a law leasing to you and guaranteeing to you a condition such as you have pictured, at a nominal charge, no more than the cost of administration; or would you prefer to have it left uncertain, with the possibility that a succeeding Congress may not be in sympathy with your view and may enact a law that would disfranchise you?

Mr. TAYLOR. I would be in favor of the former.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Taylor. Mr. Walsh.

STATEMENT OF PATRICK O. WALSH, CATTLE RAISER, HAWSTON, NEV.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Walsh, are you engaged in the livestock business?

Mr. WALSH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What branch of the livestock industry are you engaged in?

Mr. WALSH. Cattle.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in the cattle business?

Mr. WALSH. All my lifetime.

The CHAIRMAN. In one section?

Mr. WALSH. Well, since I came to the United States, in one section. The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been engaged in the livestock business where you are now located?

Mr. WALSH. Fifty-five years.

The CHAIRMAN. Åre you a user of the range within the boundaries or confines of the national forest?

Mr. WALSH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What forest?

Mr. WALSH. The Toyabe Forest.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze upon the public domain, the Government land outside of the forest?

Mr. WALSH. Certainly I do; not a great deal, but I do sometimes. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Walsh, would you be in favor of having your right to graze within the forest reserve legalized, or in other words made a legal right, rather than continue under the present condition whereby you graze through sufferance on the part of the Forest Service? Mr. WALSH. Sure I would.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever had any controversy with the forest officials?

Mr. WALSH. No. But our supervisor up there we have a change every few years, and had a new supervisor this last season. They have made a good many changes.

The CHAIRMAN. But when questions arise on which you or other users of the forest reserve do not agree with the Forest Service, are you of the opinion that there should be some disinterested tribunal to which you could go with that controversy or disagreement and have it settled in preference to having it settled by the Forest Service?

Mr. WALSH. I am agreeable to anything that will better the grazing permit. I think there is one place where I have a great grievance, and that is the opening of the season. My reason for that is, I have to feed for four months in the winter about 85 per cent of my stock, through the winter season. I have to put up a good deal of hay for that purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, who decides when you may enter the forest reserve with your livestock?

Mr. WALSH. I would like to turn my cattle outside-I don't say put them on the forest-about the 1st of April.

The CHAIRMAN. Who decides as to when you are to turn out? Who tells you when you can turn out your livestock?

Mr. WALSH. The supervisor.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you, think that some disinterested person competent to judge should decide that for you, rather than the Forest Service official?

Mr. WALSH. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you think that you are more competent to tell when you should turn out your cattle than the Forest Service? Mr. WALSH. I really do.

The CHAIRMAN. If that were left to your discretion, would you turn your livestock out at a time when it would be destructive to the range?

Mr. WALSH. I commence to feed hay in December, and I have to feed until April, and then I have to turn my stock outside. I am adjoining the forest reserve, a few miles away from the line, and when my hay gives out I have to turn my stock out. What can I do with them? Either turn them out or let them die.

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Walsh, do you think that the date for turning out cattle should be left to the local men who own the stock rather than to the Forest Service officials?

Mr. WALSH. I do.

Senator ODDIE. Do the men who own the stock know more about the condition of the range than the forest officials?

Mr. WALSH. We do, or we ought to. We have been living in there for our lifetime, so we ought to know more than the men who come out here from New York and say you have got to do this and thatthey are men who have never seen a cow before.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think it is possible for a man who has only been in the district a short time to know the conditions on the range as well as the old-timers?

Mr. WALSH. The old-timers are the ones who know it.

Senator ODDIE. If this matter of turning the cattle out on the range were left to the local stockmen, would they look after the condition of the range themselves?

Mr. WALSH. I believe in a certain way they would. In other words, if everybody turns on to the forest, both sheep and cattle, then it would be a mixed-up job.

Senator ODDIE. But if the opening date were left to the stockmen themselves

Mr. WALSH. That is the point.

Senator ODDIE. Would they turn their stock out at the time they though was best for the stock and best for the range?

Mr. WALSH. Well, really, Mr. Oddie, they have to turn them out when their hay is gone, all the people in my vicinity

Senator ODDIE. Does your opening date result in a loss to you? Mr. WALSH. Indeed it does.

Senator ODDIE. And does that add to the cost of production of cattle?

Mr. WALSH. It does. For instance, in the 55 years that I have been running cattle on that range, last spring is the first spring that I have had to herd my cattle.

Senator ODDIE. Does herding the cattle in the spring prove injurious to the cattle?

Mr. WALSH. Sure; you have to let them go to handle them easy. Senator ODDIE. If you were handling them yourself, would you let them take their natural course?

Mr. WALSH. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. If they are herded and kept from taking their natural course, does it result in injury?

Mr. WALSH. Yes; it does.

Senator ODDIE. Does it result in delaying their shedding off in the spring?

Mr. WALSH. It does.

Senator ODDIE. Does it result in a decrease in the amount of beef they put on in the summer?

Mr. WALSH. The cattle ought to be left at rest, Mr. Oddie.

Senator ODDIE. But if they are disturbed does it stop the production of beef?

Mr. WALSH. It does. The more you drive them the worse off they

are.

Senator ODDIE. And when the cattle are sold, does that result in less weight?

Mr. WALSH. Surely it does.

Senator ODDIE. Does it result in a lower quality of beef and a lower price per pound?

Mr. WALSH. Well, I have said that the more the cattle are left at rest the better condition they are in.

Senator ODDIE. And under these rulings have you been obliged to disturb your cattle and keep them moving more than you should? Mr. WALSH. This last spring I was; this is the first time.

Senator ODDIE. Was that because of the new regulations on the forest reserve?

Mr. WALSH. It seems so.

Senator ODDIE. Have they given you notice of a later date for putting the cattle out?

Mr. WALSH. No, I haven't received any notice lately-in fact, I get more letters than I can possibly read from the Forest Service. The biggest part of their job is writing letters.

Senator ODDIE. What has been the average date of turning out your stock?

Mr. WALSH. As I said, the 1st of April would be all right. I don't say that they should go in the forest reserve, but they ought to be allowed to go along the rolling hills and outside in the rolling country. I don't say they should go in the forest reserve the 1st of April. They won't go in there, because it is full of snow at that time, but they ought to be allowed to run in the foothills.

Senator ODDIE. If they are kept off the range for a certain number of weeks after that, does it result in any loss of that early spring feed! Mr. WALSH. Now, about the spring feed along the foothills, I will tell you the situation. In my locality the foothills are rather dry and poor. I don't say that is the case with Mr. Taylor, but in my locality the foothills are rather dry and poor. In the month of April a little green grass comes up there, and in the month of May it will head out, and the Forest Service officers want to keep the stock off those places. Then a north wind will come where this little feed is, and-it is the will of God that does this-it will blow all that feed away.

Senator ODDIE. And that means that that feed will be lost if you can not put the cattle out?

Mr. WALSH. Lost; yes.

Senator ODDIE. Does that mean an economic loss to the cattle industry?

Mr. WALSH. Surely it does. If the cattle are allowed to go on it in April they will do well on it.

Senator ODDIE. If the cattle are allowed to go on there as they have been in the past, say early in April, does it result in any damage to the range?

Mr. WALSH. Not at all. As I have said before, this little green grass will come up, about that long. It isn't the officers of the forest reserve that is doing this; it is the will of God. We will get this north wind and it will blow it all away.

Senator ODDIE. But if the cattle are prevented from getting that early spring feed it will result in a loss?

Mr. WALSH. I don't know what we are going to do. We have to feed them or else let them die.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe our Government should impose rules and regulations on the livestock industry which result in loss and injury to the industry?

Mr. WALSH. I do not, not for a minute.

Senator ODDIE. If this matter were left to the cattlemen themselves the industry would be carried on in better shape and the range kept in better condition?

Mr. WALSH. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe it is possible for a man in Washington to give an order which will apply to, you might say, 10.000 districts at once, and apply correctly?

Mr. WALSH. I don't know whether it would be practical. I am just talking for my locality.

Senator ODDIE. From your knowledge of the livestock industry in the country, do you think there are any two districts just alike! Mr. WALSH. I hardly believe there are.