Mr. BOWDEN. And to those large permittees have you given 10-year permits? Mr. NELSON. Oh, yes. So far as the 10-year permit goes, the only restriction we have imposed in connection with it is that they must first be supported by commensurate range property, in order to be permanent, and then we give them a 10-year permit. Senator KING. Has the complaint been made that you have favored the large cattle owner and the large sheep owner at the expense of the small owner? Mr. NELSON. I do not think so, Senator. Senator KING. It seems to me those are pretty large permits-2,500 head of cattle and 5,000 or 6,000 head of sheep. Mr. NELSON. There are certain national forests in this district' where they can only operate successfully with a relatively large number of stock. Senator KING. Do you not think that if in those instances you denied permits for such a large number the smaller holders would unite in a sort of cooperative herd and attain the same results? Mr. NELSON. Where those large permits are in effect now we would be glad we have some extra range where we would be glad to take care of such an organization as you mention. In the classification of sheep permits we have four grades: From 1 to 1,000 head, from 1,001 to 2,500, from 2,501 to 4,000, and over 4,000. In the 16 years we have picked up on the small class. We have picked up 32 more permits. We have increased the average number per permit almost 100 head. It was 457 and it is now 555. In the next grade we have 47 more permittees now than we had in 1909, and the average number per permits has remained the same, namely, 1,600, there being a difference of 2 only. In the next grade the number of permittees has remained the same. However, we have increased the average number of stock per permit about 55 head. In the larger grade we have four less permittees now than we had 16 years ago, but the average number per permit has been increased about 200 head. Senator KING. That appears from this chart that you have submitted? Mr. NELSON. Yes. The reason we have four less there is due to economic conditions that have prevailed. Senator ODDIE. Let me ask one question more about the fire situation. If Congress allowed a larger appropriation for fire control, would you be able to check fires quicker and cut down the losses by fire? Mr. NELSON. It is always possible, Senator, to increase or improve any organization. With the amount of money available and the amount of man power we have built up what we believe is a very efficient organization. Senator ODDIE (presiding). I believe so, too. Is there any further testimony to come before the committee? Before we adjourn I will say that if anyone has any statement to make relating in any way to the unreserved or reserved public lands, the national forests, Indian reservations, mineral land, or national parks and monuments, we will be glad to have statements presented to the committee and they will be placed in the record. The committee will now stand adjourned. (Whereupon, at 5.40 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet at the Hotel Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah, Tuesday, September 29, 1925, at 10 o'clock a. m.) (Pursuant to the order of the chairman, the following statement is here inserted in the record:) AUTOMOBILE CLUB OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, SENATE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS, 132 Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. Attention: Mr. George K. Bowden. GENTLEMEN: To successfully control and subdue forest fires it is essential to convey as quickly as possible to the threatened area an adequate force of fire fighters properly equipped and provisioned. The earlier this force of fire fighters is gotten to the fire the better the chances are to prevent the spread and extinguish the fire. In southern California our mountains are brush covered and steep, and the fires run with great rapidity and generally accelerated by a strong wind. It should also be borne in mind that the plains at the foot of the Sierra Madre Range is generally from 1,000 to 1,500 feet in elevation and the mountains rise precipitately. from this plain to elevations of 10,000 and 12,000 feet. The brush is almost impenetrable excepting where trails and fire breaks have been created. All of these physical conditions which exist in the Angeles and San Bernardino areas militate against the rapid transportation of fire fighters. Fires sometimes originate in areas distant from the centers of population, from which men can be drawn, and a day or more may elapse before an adequate force of men can be gotten to the fire. As there is no road completely traversing the Angeles Forest Reserve, the fire fighters are compelled to walk and arrive at the fire in no condition to undertake the hard work confronting them in an unaccustomed altitude. In my opinion, to successfully and economicallly combat forest fires in the Angeles Forest it will be necessary to first build an automobile road as near the crest of the Sierra Madres as conditions permit, so that the fire fighter with complete equipment can be delivered quickly to the point nearest the fire unfatigued, and walk down hill, instead of up hill, to where his labors begin. Most of the speakers I listened to at your Los Angeles hearing asked for larger appropriations with which to combat fires, build fire breaks, etc. If Congress were to deposit in each hamlet at the base of the Sierra Madre range a million dollars in gold yet without the means to rapidly transport men to the point of danger, fires will continue to devastate the areas upon which we are entirely dependent for a water supply, causing losses running at times into millions in one year. These economic losses are not suffered only locally but affect every other community in the United States dependent upon the products raised in southern California. The losses sustained from mountain fires in these southern California watersheds through shortage of water, flood damage, erosion in one year have amounted to many times the cost of such a road located to serve these watersheds. It may be known to you that already there has been expended upon a road designed to serve the Angeles Forest Reserve considerable sums of money. These moneys were derived from appropriations made by the Forest Service, the State of California, the county of Los Angeles, and the city of Pasadena. It is proposed to start this road near Pasadena, ascending the Arroyo Seco Canyon, thence to the summit of the Sierra Madre range, connecting with the completed Mount Lowe Road, thence south at or near the crest connecting with the road now building up the San Gabriel Canyon from Azuza, then south along the crest to a connection near Arrowhead with the San Bernardina system of mountain roads, known locally as the 101 Mile Drive. Will not your committee give consideration to the argument in favor of further and increased Government participation in this road-building program which if carried out, in conjunction with other agencies now used, will in the opinion of the writer greatly reduce the fire hazard by creating a firebreak the entire length of the reserve and lessen the cost of fire fighting. Inclosed is a map showing the course of this crest road through the Angeles reserve, and those portions completed. This road besides serving as an efficient firebreak, facilitating patrol duty, will in addition thereto enormously increase the revenue of the reserve, making readily accessible the most scenic portions of the reserve for camp sites, resorts, etc. There is probably no forest reserve or national park in the United States that receives annually as many visitants as the Angeles Forest Reserve. In excess of a million people annually visit this reserve. Respectfully submitted, H. W. KELLER, Chairman, Roads and Highways Committee. NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1925 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON Los Angeles, Calif. The subcommittee_met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, in the Hotel Biltmore, Los Angeles, Calif., at 10 o'clock a. m. Saturday, September 26, 1925, Senator Tasker L. Oddie presiding. Senator ODDIE (presiding). The committee will come to order. Yesterday, through a misunderstanding, the hearings were adjourned, but it has come to our knowledge this morning that certain witnesses would like to be heard on some matters that pertain to the public domain, forest reserve, national parks, and other matters that this committee has been authorized to hold hearings on. The first witness this morning will be Mr. Tappaan. STATEMENT OF CLAIRE S. TAPPAAN, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES, CALIF. Senator ODDIE. Will you give your name and address to the reporter, Mr. Tappaan? Mr. TAPPAAN. Claire S. Tappaan, Los Angeles, Calif. Senator ODDIE. And your business? Mr. TAPPAAN. Professor of law, University of Southern California. Senator ODDIE. Mr. Tappaan, we would be glad to have you make a statement in your own way. Mr. TAPPAAN. Mr. Chairman, for the past 25 years I have been interested in the forests and mountains of California. I am a New Yorker by birth, and I think I was first attracted to California by the articles written by the late John Muir in Century. I came to California in 1900, and at that time there was practically no information as to the beauties of the mountains, with the exception of the writings of John Muir and the elder Le Conte. I spent my summers exclusively for many years in tramping over the mountains from the Mexican border to the Canadian border. At the time I came to California practically the only region exploited was the Yosemite Valley, which was then held by the State of California. Some years later that was ceded to the United States Government. I early became identified with the only mountain club then functioning in California, the Sierra Club, which had been founded and sponsored by Muir, Le Conte, David Starr Jordan, and others of the same type. During these years I have come in contact with the people who are interested in the mountains, and perhaps I speak from a more or less prejudiced standpoint, being a mountain lover. I think I am justified in being prejudiced; I think anyone is justified in being prejudiced along those lines. The thing that I want to emphasize first is this, that the mountains should be in the control of a strong central power. In the early days of the Yosemite the State made appropriations. Those appropriations were not ample, and I am sorry to say the appropriations went practically all for junkets for the committee. I had it impressed on me very, very much. I was in the Yosemite the last year it was under State control, and the year after that I was in the northern part of the State-that is, the first year the Government took it over-and when I went back two years after you would not know the park. So to my mind the parks should be in the hands of a strong central control which has, if possible, the widest concept of the purposes for which the parks are intended. Now, I say that in all seriousness, because there is always the tendency to localize interest unless you have a very broad idea of the uses to which the parks are put. I have not a doubt, gentlemen, that a great deal has been said to you along the lines of the utilitarian-that is, that the parks should be made subservient to certain other interests which undoubt. edly are of the greatest economic value but I think that the average person in viewing the park situation loses sight of this thing. Granting that wood, water, and food are necessary for the best interests of our people, there is another side which I think is entirely subrogated. The United States, the various State and local organizations are at this time spending countless millions of dollars in what they call Americanization; that is, bringing to the people a higher idea of what the United States is. And to my mind the greatest educational use of our park system is taking the city dweller out and showing him what there is in the United States aside from walls and pavements. Now, to illustrate what I mean: Some of my confrères in the Sierra Club believe the parks should be maintained in all their pristine glory. To my mind the greatest of all the things is the fact that to-day the parks are made accessible, and the little man, who perhaps makes a precarious livelihood, but is able to get a Ford, can load his family into the Ford and for a mere pittance can go into these wonderful parks. I remember perhaps 10 or 12 years ago it was said that the Yosemite was such a large playground that it would never be overcrowded, and somebody, Mr. Mather in fact, suggested that some time the Tuolumne, a great parklike place, would be used. They laughed at it. You go up in the Tuolumne to-day and you will see hundreds of camp fires in the top of the snow around there, and you go around those camp fires the way I have gone repeatedly, and you will have a very interesting and instructive experience. I remember once I was coming up out of the Yosemite and my car was stopped, and I was kind of sore, and at last I walked up. Ahead of me there was a Ford that couldn't make the grade. It had a camping equipment on it, a man, his wife, and three children, two of them in arms, and I think that was the greatest thing I have |