areas where people can go for camping to designated areas under careful supervision. And especially the limiting of all campfire privileges to spots that are adequately fireproofed. I want to say a word about that further in a moment. And also the closing of extra hazardous areas at the discretion of the forest supervisor during periods of the greatest fire menace. There has occasionally been raised the question of the need of the entire closing of the mountains to the public. It would seem to me that the picture that I have sketched in just a moment of this being the one still untamed great natural resource within the reach of a population so large, should be sufficient answer to that argument, unless it should come as a last resort of the only means of protecting our watershed.

Now, as a matter of fact we find that very few of the fires-I believe it can be shown by the statistics of the Forest Service that very few of the forest fires are at present due to the violation of these camping privileges.

With respect to the smoking menace, the regulation covering that has been in force only this year, but our observation has been that nearly all of the public gladly and cheerfully are conforming to

that.

We people in the mountains generally repeatedly try to do our bit in educating the public to the sort of thing that has been talked of to-day, of the value of all of these things in preserving these resources, and the certain doom of all of us if they are not preserved. While it might seem the simpler thing to protect your watersheds if there was nobody in them, when you have the other loss, the certain loss of recreation, then it becomes a different problem. We can not estimate it. We have had a wonderful array of figures here. There are two reasons why I can not give you figures; one, that my head does not hold them, and the other that human values can not be put into figures the same way.

Recreation is the one provision for keeping a population going at terrific speed, keeping them fit for their work. Our mountains serve in two great capacities for this great need. First for week ends. I think perhaps almost in an unparalleled way here we have thousands upon thousands of our people who at their week end put on their old clothes, their thick-soled shoes, and go after mountain trails. And that is the way they keep fit. It is their outdoor gymnasium the year around.

And then right at the gates of this city here is such an array of mountains and trails and places to go. There are the big clubs, like the Sierra Club of California, with several thousands of members, making their weekly trips. There are many smaller clubs. There are parties from the schools and colleges, and big church groups that go out together for their week ends. Parties from the stores and offices, the Boy Scouts, the Camp Fire Girls; all of these organizations continually making this their means of retaining their health and efficiency for their work.

We have in the San Bernardino Mountains some city playgrounds for the city of Los Angeles, taking care of several thousand people annually, a good many of them at a minimum cost. In another range we have the county playground. And that sort of thing

is just now beginning, of the public institutions providing recreation at a minimum cost for our people.

We have the resorts that are the channels through which the people get their outings. And in this range we have some 20 resorts. I can not give the figures so well for the other ranges, and I hope that Mr. Atwood, who will follow me and give our resolutions on this, can say something more illuminating on the great recreational value of the San Bernardino Mountains. But these perhaps are sufficient to suggest the enormous service that these mountains are already making to a people.

And then if we will dream 25 years ahead, or a century ahead, to when there is no place left except what is held back, conserved for public use, when we think of the dense population here, and the need there will be to maintain the health, the vigor, and the ideals of our people of southern California, we see that the open policy of recreation on our national forest is one of the very prime conditions for the future welfare of our great Commonwealth.

Senator KING. May I ask whether you think the regulations now in force promulgated by the department are too drastic, or are they fair and reasonable?

Mr. AUSTIN. I am glad you asked me that question, for I had meant to say that in one particular I hope that the regulations will become more drastic. As was mentioned by our forest supervisor just after the last fire, we will fine a man who kills a doe out of season $500, and a man who will set a fire that will burn off several thousand acres of forest land and cause us a loss of untold thousands of dollars, as Mr. Barnes could compute, and kill any amount of game, will get off with a fine of $50, or at a maximum, $250. I believe we should have much more drastic penalties for violation of either the camping or the smoking regulations.

Senator KING. Is that not the fault of the judge rather than the regulations?

Mr. AUSTIN. Yes.

Senator KING. You had better improve your judges then.

Mr. AUSTIN. That is it. And then for adequate protection from the public, we will say, of course, that the problem is not solved. I can not say that at present it is 100 per cent safe to let the public into our mountains. What I am trying to say is that it would be so colossal a calamity to keep the public out of the mountains that we must face the problem of providing enough money to supervise them in the only adequate place for them to belong. And we need more money for all of these purposes that have been mentioned, for fire prevention, the extending of fire breaks, trails, roads, all of these things are helpful for recreation, and they are vital for keeping the public safe in the mountains and keeping the mountains safe from the public. And now on the particular point of fireproofed camping places. The Forest Service has had very little money as yet to use for that particular purpose, and surely that is one of the very urgent means of safeguarding the mountains, to make those areas, those spaces where the public are allowed to camp, fireproof so far as possible.

I think I will leave the rest of the time on this subject to Mr. Atwood.

Senator ODDIE. We will be glad to hear from Mr. Atwood.

STATEMENT OF LEON ATWOOD, LAND AGENT OF THE ARROW HEAD LAKE CO., SAN BERNARDINO, CALIF.

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Atwood, will you give your name, your address, and your position to the reporter?

Mr. ATWOOD. L. A. Atwood; San Bernardino, Calif.; land agent, Arrow Head Lake Co.

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Atwood, will you give your statement in your own way to the committee?

Mr. ATWOOD. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, what is said as to fire protection and conservation and reforestation comes back to the resort end of it, and we are very much interested in these subjects on account of that. There is no use going over the ground again. In the San Bernardino Mountains, which I am representing here to-day, for your information I will state that two years ago we had, according to the forestry check and the State highway commission's check and the chamber of commerce check, about 1,600,000 people who entered the San Bernardino Forest on account of recreation. Last year that was cut down to somewhere near a million on account of our hoof-and-mouth disease in this State, the closing of the forest, and the drought. This year the check has not been completed but will be very heavy.

The Forestry Service receives from the San Bernardino Mountains, I believe, approximately $50,000 a year in rentals for cabin sites built by the individual that rents from the Government a small lot. That in itself, of course, is quite a revenue, and is increasing every year; in fact, the Forest Service informs us that they can not survey lots fast enough to take care of the demand. Along with that are the private interests that are very extensive in our part of the mountains.

Now, at this time I would like to invite this committee, along with those interested, and Mr. Sherman, to come either this evening following your meeting or to-morrow, if you finish this afternoon or to-morrow, as the guests of the San Bernardino Chamber of Commerce and the Arrowhead Lake Co., to San Bernardino, and we will take you from here in an electric car and by automobile from there to the mountains, where you can see everything that you heard of here to-day and more, and see the development that is going on in those mountains, the results of fire, and what protection we are able to give the mountains, and to be our guests. It will only take three and one-half hours to make the trip, and you could spend a nice week end and secure a great deal of information and education that I believe you will not receive here in this meeting. I would like to make that invitation.

Senator ODDIE. On behalf of the committee and those composing the party I want to thank you very much for that kind invitation. I know it would be very interesting and instructive. We are unable to tell you as to what our plans may be at this time. We will tell you later.

Mr. ATWOOD. We would like to know if the committee could come, because we will arrange for a special car from here to San Bernardino and for automobiles from there to the mountains. Senator ODDIE. Thank you very much.

Mr. ATWOOD. I wish to present the following resolution for the record [reading]:

RESOLUTIONS CONCERNING THE RECREATIONAL USE OF THE NATIONAL FORESTS OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA

Whereas wholesome outdoor recreation is universally recognized as one of the vital necessities of modern life; and

Whereas the recreational use of our national forests is a long-established policy of the United States Forest Service; and

Whereas the four great national forests of southern California, the Santa Barbara, Angeles, San Bernardino, and Cleveland Forests, are the natural and logical open-air playgrounds for a rapidly increasing population, already numbering over 2,000,000; and

Whereas any reversal of the policy of free recreational use of the national forests would result in inestimable loss to the people and the business interests of southern California: Therefore be it

Resolved, That we indorse unqualifiedly the policy of the United States Forest Service, particularly as announced in the concluding 10 paragraphs of the recent report of Associate Forester E. A. Sherman, on "Outdoor recreation in the national forests"; and be it further

Resolved, That in the interests of fire prevention vital alike to the preservation of our water resources and the beauty and charm of our mountain playgrounds, we urge the continued enforcement of regulations against smoking on mountain trails and roads, the restriction of camp-fire privileges to designated spots under adequate supervision properly fireproofed, the closing of extra hazardous areas at the discretion of the forest supervisor during periods of extreme hazard, and the provision of more severe penalties for carelessness either with smoking or camp fires; and be it further

Resolved, That the issuance of grazing permits be restricted to areas where they do not interfere with public recreation and that only short-term permits be issued in areas having recreational value; and be it further

Resolved, That we urge the importance of much larger appropriations for the building of firebreaks, roads and trails, and other means of providing for and safeguarding the interests of both recreation and water supply.

Senator ODDIE (presiding). We will now take up the subject of "Agricultural use of public lands." Mr. Dunwoody.

STATEMENT OF CHARLES G. DUNWOODY, DIRECTOR DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, CALIFORNIA DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION

Mr. DUNWOODY. The presentation, Mr. Chairman, of the subject of agricultural use of public lands was to have been made this afternoon by Mr. W. A. Johnstone, president of the Los Angeles County Farm Bureau. He was unable to be here, and he asked me to present this resolution and to make a brief explanation. [Reading:]

Whereas great hardships and unnecessary economic losses have resulted from the location by unscrupulous land agents of many innocent and uninformed people upon public lands that are unfitted for ordinary agricultural purposes, chiefly in arid and desert areas: Now, therefore, be it

Resolved, That we urge that all lands be withdrawn from homestead or desert entry until such time as it shall have been definitely shown by governmental investigation that any of such lands are suitable for profitable agricultural development and have available in arid or semiarid areas a sufficient supply of water for agricultural use at a cost that will be practicable for such agricultural use on these lands, and that thereafter only such lands as have been so shown to have a sufficient supply of water available at a reasonable cost, or that is otherwise suitable for successful agricultural use, shall be opened to public entry.

COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURAL USES OF PUBLIC LANDS.
W. A. JOHNSTONE, Chairman.
GEO. P. CLEMENTS, M. D.

SEPTEMBER 24, 1925.

Mr. DUNWOODY. That deals with the unscrupulous land agent who brings people to California with a mere handful of money, possibly two or three thousand dollars, and sells them a block of desert out there promising them that they will get rich quick from their agricultural activities. It is simply a method of controlling crooked real

estate men.

On the question of "public domain" there are two resolutions to have been presented by Doctor Clements.

Senator ODDIE (presiding). Will you tell the committee who Doctor Clements is and whom he represents?

Mr. DUNWOODY. Dr. George P. Clements, agricultural director of the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce. In case the hearing is extended, Mr. Chairman, until to-morrow, Doctor Clements may have some remarks to make on these subjects, but in case it is not, he has asked me to present these resolutions.

Senator ODDIE (presiding). We will be glad to have you present the resolutions at this time.

Mr. DUNWOODY (reading):

Whereas the public domain, in desert and semiarid districts, permits the citizen homestead rights and desert filings, the acquiring of title to which depends upon securing adequate water supply;

And whereas the citizen is forced to undergo expense and toilsome effort on the veritable hazard of procuring water for irrigation;

And whereas experience has proven that the average filing results in the financial ruin and broken morale of the individual and his family and even in the case of the finding of water, there is no adequate recompense; Therefore be it

Resolved, That we request the Federal Government to withdraw all public domain from homestead or desert entry until water has been provided for irrigation or proved to be within agricultural depths.

GEO. P. CLEMENTS, M. D.
C. E. KELSEY.

Whereas it is unfair to the people of the United States to deliver the administration and control of the unreserved public domain into the hands of any organization or class which is directly interested in its exploitation; and Whereas within the State of California the public domain, through water development, is absolutely necessary to industry and agriculture; and

Whereas the public domain is now open to the use of each and all free of charge: Therefore be it

Resolved, That, for the benefit of the people of California in safeguarding their watersheds, the public domain, in its relation to grazing, be administered in a manner similar to that of the Federal Forest Service.

GEO. P. CLEMENTS, M. D.
C. E. KELSEY.

Senator KING. I was interested in that one resolution which contained a statement about the delivering of any of the lands of the Government for exploitation to a class. I was wondering what the drafters of that resolution had in mind when they drew that resolution. Was it the cattle men or the sheep men or any particular class?

Mr. DUNWOODY. Mr. Chairman, as a representative of a state-wide body I am not permitted to make any statement on that resolution. That was drawn in our meeting, and I merely read that at Doctor Clement's request. Mr. Kelsey is here, and he may be able to answer that question.