Senator ODDIE. Will you tell us something of your organizationhow it is formed and who compose it?

Mr. GILMAN. Well, about four years ago some of our citizens, realizing the seriousness of our watershed-protection problem and recognizing the serious attack upon it by fires, conceived the idea of forming a volunteer or civilian militia to cooperate with the Forest Service in the county in time of fire. They have organized 20 units in the different communities. At the start of small fires these men start right off at the call of the local agent and attack the fires, on their own initiative, and act on their own initiative until a Forest Service officer arrives on the scene, and then he takes over the control.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do these citizens represent any interest directly, or are they just interested in the situation as citizens and living in that community?

Mr. GILMAN. That is the situation exactly.

Mr. BOWDEN. It operates only on the Angeles Forest?

Mr. GILMAN. That is the only one that we are particularly connected with. I understand that this work is being taken up now all over the State of California by Mr. Dunwoody's organization, the California Development Association. Mr. Dunwoody was the first president and practically the founder of the organization.

Mr. BOWDEN. It is purely voluntary?

Mr. GILMAN. It is purely voluntary, and nothing but patriotism actuates a man when he joins the organization. He can not be imputed with any question of selfishness or mercenary gain. He goes out and agrees to fight fire at 35 cents an hour, and anybody who has ever fought fire at 35 cents an hour knows that there is no money in it and very little romance.

Mr. BOWDEN. Who contributes to the organization?

Mr. GILMAN. Nobody. The chambers of commerce are officially back of most of the organizations, but the organization has no paid officers. It is absolutely only voluntary.

Senator ODDIE. I want to thank you for your statement, Mr. Gilman. Mr. Dunwoody has a statement?

STATEMENT OF CHARLES G. DUNWOODY, DIRECTOR DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION, CALIFORNIA DEVELOPMENT ASSOCIATION, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

Mr. DUNWOODY. Senator, I have followed with interest the presentations that have been made by the witnesses preceding me, and have made careful note as to the points covered, and I believe there are three points yet uncovered on the subject of watershed protection. I am speaking not only for southern California, but for California as a State.

You are familiar doubtless with the provisions of the ClarkeMcNary Act, which provides cooperative moneys for forest protection to be used in connection with moneys that are put up by private individuals, firms and corporations, municipalities and so forth. At present that has been increased from $660,000 to $670,000, a very small increase. The people of the State of California desire to place before the Federal authorities the desirability of increasing that fund from $670,000 to $1,000,000. Thus giving the State a

little more cooperative money on forest protection. If necessary we will appear in Washington on this matter. I simply wanted to get that in the record.

Last year at the session of our National Congress there was passed a bill known as Senate bill 4099, and a companion bill in the House of Representatives, which provided a Federal forest experiment station for the State of California. This bill was passed and no money was provided. We are very anxious that this provision be taken care of by the Bureau of the Budget, but if it is not we are prepared to introduce a bill in the National Congress providing for that. It is one of the most vital needs of the State of California that she have very soon her Federal forest experiment station.

There have been very few experiments conducted in the State of California relative to reforestation. We are practically in the dark. I am saying this and I believe it is pertinent in connection with watershed protection. There have been some experiments conducted by the authorities of Los Angeles County, and they have been fairly successful, but they feel until the Federal Government takes that up just that long will be retarded progressive reforestation in the recovering of our watersheds.

The Weather Bureau of the United States has placed in its estimates this year an item of $10,000 which provides for meteorologists to be employed to forecast fire-weather warnings. One word regarding fire-weather warnings and its importance in the fire-fighting game in the State of California. Last year in the San Gabriel fire we found that invariably when conditions of low relative humidity existed, hot winds, our fires ran. I have seen the fires on the San Gabriel run faster downhill than I ever saw them run uphill in ordinary times, due to the low relative humidity that existed."

In southern California Colonel Hershey, of the Weather Bureau. is giving fire-weather warnings and the Forest Service is finding it of material advantage to them to know in advance about the firehazardous weather. We are very anxious to see that provided for by some action of Congress or by the Bureau of the Budget in order that we may have these things in a State-wide way. Southern California at present is taking care of herself, as I understand it, merely by courtesy of the Weather Bureau.

I simply wanted to get those three things into the record, Senator. Thank you.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. May I just inject one additional thought there? Senator ODDIE. Yes. Will you come forward, please?

STATEMENT OF GEORGE E. TROWBRIDGE, LAWYER, LOS

ANGELES, CALIF.

Senator ODDIE. Will you give your name, address, and occupation to the reporter.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. George E. Trowbridge; lawyer; Los Angeles. Just one additional thought I would like to have the committee consider in addition to what has been said here. Those who have spoken have touched upon grazing, agriculture, and other industries affected by the watershed and the protection of the water supply. And I would like to simply suggest that in addition to that you consider the value of the water protection to hydroelectric power. Es

pecially southern California, and practically all of the State, is to a great measure dependent for power upon hydroelectric power, and of course that source of power comes from the high mountains, and the water supply is dependent upon and is regulated by the vegetation that is maintained upon the watersheds. And I just want to suggest that additional thought, in addition to the ones that have been suggested, that the maintenance of the watershed protection is of the utmost importance to this country, to this State, and to all of the Western States where hydroelectric power is utilized, and that any policy which is adopted by the Government ought to take that into consideration, in addition to the other industries that have been touched upon.

Senator ODDIE. Will you state for the record, briefly, how the hydroelectric-power industry affects other industries in this section of the State?

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. Generally, I suppose, there are few industries in this State that are not affected directly or indirectly by power; and I say that in my opinion the greater portion, far the greater portion, in southern California of the power is hydroelectric power. And agriculture is affected directly by the pumping of the water from the wells for irrigation purposes. Every manufacturing industry out here utilizes the power. Other forms of industry-cattle and poultry-I can not enumerate them all, except to say that practically every industry here is affected by power, and its value and its cheapness is of the utmost importance; and inasmuch as the large proportion of this power is generated by the streams coming from the Sierra Nevadas and the other mountains of the State the importance of the protection of those watersheds which afford the supply of power is of the highest importance.

Senator ODDIE. Will any condition that adversely affects the hydroelectric-power industry be reflected in taxable values and returns? Mr. TROWBRIDGE. I do not know as I get the drift of your question, Senator.

Senator ODDIE. If any condition adversely affects the electric power industry in southern California, will it have an adverse effect on the tax rolls?

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. I would say that it would, because with the scarcity of power there is less development of every kind. There are less agricultural lands developed which are taxable; there is less manufacturing advancement and I would say that it would have a very pronounced effect upon the tax rolls.

Senator ODDIE. You heard my request of Mr. Ryerson to make a rough computation of the damage done from fires. Can you add something to that computation and assist him by telling him roughly what damage is done to the electric power industry from fires?

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. Not in figures, Mr. Chairman, I could not. When you asked that question I simply thought it was a very pertinent question and that the figures ought to be supplied you. It is a very pertinent question.

Senator ODDIE. I have a reason for asking that, in order to paint a picture.

Mr. BARNES. Last year it was $5,128,000. It cost one concern, the Southern California Edison Co., that amount.

Senator ODDIE. Who made that estimate?

Mr. BARNES. Their chief executive engineer, Mr. Lewis. Senator ODDIE. That should be added then, in your opinion, to the computation being made by Mr. Ryerson?

Mr. BARNES. Absolutely.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. That loss to the company which Mr. Barnes mentioned was due entirely to insufficient water supply to that company, and every other electric power company in the State suffered in proportion. But that company suffered that actual out-of-pocket cash damage through an insufficient water supply, which was somewhat due to a lack of rainfall, but it was also due to the fact that when the rain did fall it flowed off and was not retained in the mountains as it would have been had the watersheds been adequately protected.

Senator ODDIE. I will ask Mr. Dunwoody to make a statement on this matter.

Mr. DUNWOODY. Relative to the question asked by Senator Oddie I will quote you from a statement made by Mr. R. H. Ballard, the vice president and manager of the Southern California Edison Co. at a meeting held by the American Reforestation Association. Am I permitted to do so, Mr. Barnes?

Mr. BARNES. Yes.

Mr. DUNWOODY (reading):

Last year there was a shortage of power. There was a lack of rainfall and there was also a very dry season which made possible, or made more prevalent, forest fires which further denuded the hills. In our own company, in order to keep service going, we were compelled to operate a number of steam plants of all kinds and vintages, some built many years ago and some that has not been operated for 20 years. The added cost of that operation in one year's time was $5,128,000. That sum of money the people will have to pay, due to the peculiar construction of our institution. The people will either pay that money through rates for service or the approximately 400,000 people in the families represented by the stockholders of our concern will pay it from their earnings. Mr. BARNES. Mr. Dunwoody, may I add this?

Senator ODDIE. Yes.

Mr. BARNES. You asked for a statement as to the value of water for power. You will find further in that statement that Mr. Ballard states authentically that 1 horsepower at an elevation, or in our mountain areas, is worth $6,000, and that we have potentially 750,000 horsepower in the State of California; and this, therefore, affects potentially four and one-half billions-not millions, but billionsfour and one-half billion dollars' worth of power. And that is one institution engaged in the creation and production of electrical current upon which our entire industrial fabric is operated.

Mr. TROWBRIDGE. I did not come here with the idea of making a statement. I am associated with one of the attorneys for the Southern California Edison Power Co. I was merely interested because of my interest in the public domain, having been with the Government 10 or 12 years, and I simply noticed that power had not been mentioned, and so it could not possibly be allowed to escape the attention of the committee. This was the only reason I made the state

ment.

Senator ODDIE. Well, the committee thanks you for the contribution you have made.

Mr. Dunwoody, when was that speech of Mr. Ballard's delivered? Mr. DUNWOODY. July 17, 1925.

Mr. BOWDEN. And the "last year" referred to in the quotation, then, was the year 1924?

Mr. DUNWOODY. Yes.

Mr. KELSEY. In answer to your last question of the speaker (Mr. Trowbridge) in regard to what happens to taxable returns when something is done to injure power, I might say that our experience last year shows us exactly what happens, although it is impossible to estimate it. We had to prorate the power to be used in pumping water onto our farms in southern California. If that condition were continuous the value of our property would be immediately destroyed; we would only get half the income, there is no telling what the result would be, and the taxable values would immediately fade. It is not alone the possibility of potential power, but the present production that results from that power, which is fundamental to the production of agricultural products here. Our returns would stop, and that would immediately affect taxation and the returns from taxation.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe, then, that a curtailment of power will result in the curtailment of agricultural production?

Mr. KELSEY. Why, it must; yes, sir.

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Barnes, would you like to make a statement in this connection?

Mr. BARNES. I just wanted to make the statement that the agricultural development was retarded 18 per cent and reflected by a $51,000,000 decrease in the exportations in that one year. That is how much it affects it and how quickly it affects it.

Senator ODDIE. Did that curtailment in agricultural production have a material effect on other industries in the State?

Mr. BARNES. It certainly did, because the State of California furnishes 71 per cent of the canned goods, canned fruit, in the United States as one item.

Senator ODDIE. That further illustrates the question of interdependence of industries within the States.

Is there anything further to be presented on watershed protection?

STATEMENT OF H. W. KELLER, LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

Mr. KELLER. Mr. Chairman, there is one matter that I would like to mention. Road construction has been referred to. I am a member of the Automobile Club, and one of its officers, and we have been busy for a number of years trying to construct a road up the Arroyo Seco and through the Angeles Forest Reserve at or near its summit to a connection with the roads existing in the San Bernardino Forest Reserve. Now, the Government, of course, appreciates the importance of road construction through the forest reserves, and they have helped as far as they are able to help. The city of Pasadena has contributed money. The county of Los Angeles has contributed to the road-construction fund of that road; so has the State of California. And in this disastrous fire of 1924, which has been alluded to here, had that road been constructed and completed through the Angeles Forest Reserve, it requires no argument to prove to you that men and materials could have been rushed up there in a very