Senator ODDIE (presiding). Do you believe that the officials of the Forest Service are handicapped because of the lack of ample appropriations? Mr. RYERSON. I know it, sir. There is no question about it. I think as far as their ability to handle funds and administer there is no question. But as far as their ability to function with the funds. provided, they have been handicapped to a tremendous degree. And we are only fortunate in Los Angeles County in having a county forest department and a board of supervisors alive enough to the situation to appropriate cooperative funds which have made possible the integrity that we do have. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Do you think that the personnel of the Forest Service in this part of the State is adequate at the present time? Mr. RYERSON. I think that they are in a position to tell more specifically where they need man power. But I think they are handicapped by reason of the lack of funds largely in the maintenance of sufficient men to carry on the work, and that they only have funds sufficient to attack sporadically at times of great necessity. I will say this, that our experience has shown here that the Federal Government has been willing to place in their hands adequate funds to fight fires once they have been started, but they have not been afforded the funds for preventive measures nor sufficient funds to prepare for those eventualities. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Do you think that with larger funds they would be able to check fires more in their inception? Mr. RYERSON. Yes, sir; there is no question about that, sir. Senator ODDIE (presiding). And thereby reduce the damage? Mr. RYERSON. No question of it, sir. And I might say that at the present time in anticipation of that there is the plan which is being carried out within the limits of the appropriations thus far granted by Federal and other agents to checkerboard these forest areas with fire lanes and trails and breaks, so in the event of a spread of fire into these highly inflammable areas it will be possible to squeeze out these fires by back-firing and other well-known fire-fighting methods rather than have them spread over larger areas. And we have had an experience this last year after having a rather expensive experience of fire-lane construction since the disastrous fires of a year or two ago, that the one thing that stopped the fire where it did stop was the fire lane and fire break created. During the San Gabriel fire it was necessary for the Federal and county governments to construct fire lanes and fire trails right in the face of the fire. It is an expensive process. It costs the Government and it costs local agencies several times what it would cost to do it at one time of the year when the fire risk is not great, and it is unfortunate that in the past funds have not been made available to our Forest Service officials, as we see it, as readily for preventive measures as for suppressive measures. And we believe in the importance of preventive measures, rather than suppressive measures. You will have recalled to you, if you please, the fact that there has just been paid into the county treasury of Los Angeles by the Federal Government some $89,000 or thereabouts for that portion of the cost of suppressing the San Gabriel fire last year that should be borne by the Federal Government. If the Federal Forestry Department here had had eighty thousand and odd dollars at its disposal for preventive measures there is no question but what they could have in a large measure prevented the spread of that fire. Senator ODDIE (presiding). In other words, you feel that the Federal Government is asking the impossible of its forest reserve officials under present conditions? Mr. RYERSON. No question about it, sir. I think they are doing everything that is humanly possible with a great handicap. And I think that every attention should be given to their requests. At the present time I believe that there is a hearing anticipated for this month before the Director of the Budget on the part of the Forest Service, and I think that every agency in this country, and particularly in southern California, is behind the Forest Service to the last ditch to get the money they are asking, because the sums they are asking we feel are most modest, and could be doubled with an economic return to the Government in every case. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Have you estimated the approximate loss from these fires, including crops, the loss of business, and so on? Mr. RYERSON. The figures that have been given from time to time which would tend to show the loss of crops really beggar description in one way and are a little bit hard to describe with definiteness. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Will you give a very rough estimate, in your opinion? Mr. RYERSON. Well, sir, I will just call your attention again to the loss during that period 1916 to 1920 due to forest fires. This is the cost to the State. I was in error, sir, in stating that this was this local condition. This is the cost to the State. I can give you an approximate cost to our local area. Due to primary erosion in that period, it has been estimated from State, Federal, and county reports $1,982,566. Due to secondary erosion, $5,540,717. Due to tertiary erosion, $27,703,585. Permanent destruction to the land of a value of $6,000,000. Due to readjustment of crops-not capable of adequate computation. It is a figure that can not be adequately given, and has not been given in any of the research that we have been able to carry on. Due to fire to pasturage, a value of only 20 cents an acre, the loss in that period was nearly $100,000. The loss, as pointed out before, sir, in one year's flood here-and it was a comparatively light loss last year as those things go-$10,000,000 of taxable returns were lost to this county alone." I believe there are those who will follow who have intimately associated themselves in years past with these economic losses and can give you more directly some of these costs. I regret exceedingly that Doctor Clements is not here to-day, because he has at his finger tips, as it were, those facts that you desire. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Those items that you have just given foot up approximately how much? Mr. RYERSON. If you will pardon me, they are totally inadequate, I might state, considering the area and the time that we are consid ering. If you will pardon me just a moment, I think I can give you some figures. Here are some figures, sir, on the forest fires of 1924 compiled from official records. Losses of 62,200 acres affected amounted to $175,881, of which $112,489 represented the worth of timber, again not taking into account any value of watershed cover, as we understand it, as expressed in brush. The loss to State forest in the past 10 days-this was compiled in August, 1924-amounted to $242,342. May I call your attention to the fact that our whole State budget for fire protection in that year was only $44,360. Senator ODDIE (presiding). And the Government budget was how much for that year? Mr. RYERSON. The Government budget for that period, 1924, or to be exact, the Government budget for the area south of the Tehachapi for all purposes was $254,804.69. And the county of Los Angeles in that period, as given you before, spent $87,130 plus $92,041. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Well, then, from the figures you have previously given, what would you say a rough approximation of the total losses would be? Just give it to us roughly so we will have a picture. Mr. RYERSON. I wish, sir, that I could do that. Senator ODDIE (presiding). How much do these figures that you have given us total? Mr. RYERSON. I would have to go back over that, sir, and total them; and I would be glad, if I may be permitted to do so, to insert an estimate of those. Senator ODDIE (presiding). I would be very glad if you would do so. Are you familiar with a statement that has recently appeared in the Manufacturers' News regarding fires in the country other than forest fires? Mr. RYERSON. I am not, sir. Senator ODDIE (presiding). The statement is made that they approximate about $500,000,000 a year throughout the country. Mr. GEORGE H. BARNES. Senator, that exact figure was $547,000,000. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Yes. And that a rough estimate of the amount appropriated for the maintenance of fire departments and watersheds I understand is about $500,000,000. Do you believe that is correct? That is almost dollar for dollar of fire loss and money that is spent to protect against fires in property under private ownership other than forests. Mr. RYERSON. Yes. Senator ODDIE (presiding). What I would like to bring out here is an approximate statement as to the proportions spent. Mr. GEORGE H. BARNES. That did not include the item of premiums on fire insurance policies, either; just the physical property maintained; just the cost of the physical maintenance of the firefighting apparatus. Senator ODDIE (presiding). My idea is to have a picture for the people of the whole country in order that they will understand the problem out here, and a picture for Congress showing the proportion that the Government expends in fire protection of its forests and watersheds, and the amount that private individuals spend for the protection of their own property. Mr. RYERSON. I believe, sir, we can get you such figures before you leave, and would be most pleased to have them presented to you. I might state that had I known that this was going to arise at this time I would have had more time to prepare and would have given you some of these details. I want to again call your attention, in view of the remarks just made, to the fact that we do consider that we have a special case here, in that brush cover is of such tremendous importance to us as a people. It is not a thing easy to explain or to show to the lay mind, we will admit, because there are those erroneously advocating at times the burning off of brush cover for grazing purposes, stating that they get more water from it, or what not. But experience has shown, without any question of doubt, that if an area such as we have to live in here, our semiarid climate, our seasonal rainfalls of varying intensity, with a brush cover to retain that water which does fall upon our watersheds, to prevent erosion of the soils which we must have on our hills for future growth, makes the brush cover of economic value and of the highest importance to us, of an economic value far surpassing in some cases timber crop to other sections of the United States. And if we are going to lose this brush cover from our very precipitous slopes in many cases we are going to lose the soil for all time, as far as we are concerned, that we must have there if we are to recover and reforest. We have thousands and thousands of acres of that area practically denuded of soil, and experts tell us that it takes a hundred years to make an inch of soil by natural processes, and we are washing off hundreds of thousands of years of soil production every time we have a flood following these disastrous fires. Senator ODDIE (presiding). Do you believe that any system of artificial reforestation would be superior to the present natural brush growth? Mr. RYERSON. Might I say this, sir, that nature is rather liberal in restoring brush cover when, following a fire, the soil is not washed off by heavy floods and heavy precipitation. But we are faced with the fact that we are followed periodically with heavy rainfall on top of these burn offs with the result that our soil in many cases is washed away and taken down as a silt menace to our lower lands. Nature can not replenish under those conditions sufficiently. There is no question but what a system of reforestation, both as to the replenishment of brush cover and tree cover, can and should be undertaken. Our county forester, and our Federal forester here at the present time are doing everything in their power with the funds at hand, and several millions of trees will be available to the county forester as time goes on if we are to be sure that we are to have the same funds and personnel handling for that purpose. But the Federal Government has thousands of acres of land, sir, that are not subject to the application of the county reforesta tion, and I believe that a proper recognition by the Government of the needs for an intensified reforestation is necessary. It can be done. To what degree in certain sections is a problem. But it should have the scientific application that is accorded other agricultural problems. We have asked for experiment stations, and have gotten a little way. I believe Congress has granted us the station without the funds for it, so it is rather a hollow victory at the time. We should have forestry stations in charge of our Forest Service officials, and the stations should be provided for a proper research into the types and method to be employed for reforestation. If we do not do this, sir, we are a people without vision and a people totally blind to our economic integrity. In conclusion, I would like to put in the record a resolution briefly summarizing what I have said as embodying the feeling of this group today on behalf of water conservation. Senator ODDIE (presiding). We will be glad to place that in the record. (The resolution presented by Mr. Ryerson for the record is here printed in full, as follows:) RESOLUTION ON BEHALF OF THE WATER CONSERVATION AND FIRE PROTECTION PRESENTED TO THE UNITED STATES SENATE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS AT A HEARING HELD IN LOS ANGELES, CALIF., SEPTEMBER 25, 1925 Whereas the growth of population in southern California creates a corresponding and increasing demand for irrigation and domestic water; and Whereas the water supply for both uses has been steadily decreasing over a period of years, due for the most part to the denuding of forests and other watershed areas by fire and erosion; Whereas the integrity and increase of supply has become a fundamental economic problem of this whole area: Therefore be it Resolved, That the attention of the Senate Committee on Public Lands and Surveys, and through it the proper departments of the Federal Government, be and hereby are urged to give proper and immediate recognition to the needs of those agencies charged with the responsibility of protecting watershed cover and water-bearing lands in southern California. In this connection particular attention is called to the need of securing special Federal aid as set forth in the recommendations of the Federal Board of Fire Review for Southern California and embodied in United States Senate bill 4155 with concurrent House resolution, as introduced in the last session of the United States Congress for consideration, which bill will be reintroduced in the next session: Be it further Resolved, That particular attention be given the needs of the United States Weather Bureau as affecting facilities for the continuance and extension of fireweather warnings, which information has a tremendous value in the handling of the ever-present fire menace within the confines of this locality. We will next hear Mr. Kelsey, president of the Conservation Association of Southern California. STATEMENT OF C. E. KELSEY, PRESIDENT OF THE CONSERVATION ASSOCIATION OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA Mr. KELSEY. Mr. Chairman, I could not amplify very much what Mr. Ryerson has said. Water is of the utmost importance to us; it does not matter whether it is a hundred miles or two hundred miles away, for domestic use and agricultural use; it is absolutely essential to us. We fight over water among ourselves. We must have it to exist. It is not a matter of making our prosperity, it is an abso |