of their industry, which is dependent upon the conservation of forage within the national forests?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And there is no conflict between them and the timber interests?

Mr. BIXBY. I have never heard of any conflict of any kind. The CHAIRMAN. They are in no way asking the right to control the national forest?

Mr. BIXBY. Oh, no. I will take as an example the national forest in Imperial County. As I understand it, there is not a tree in the forest. It is a sort of gravelly soil, covered with brush. Four years ago I asked the Forest Service if I could have that burned, or parts of it burned, in order to get some grass, as the brush had taken the whole place. They came back with this answer, that the brush kept the gravel in place, stopped the washing of the gravel, and conserved the watershed. I said, "Such being the case we don't want to burn it.”

I asked them then about a forest up in the north, where the brush was getting so thick that there was no grass at all, and they said there were parts of that forest they could burn, and they did burn, I think, one piece of 5,000 acres, and there was another piece of 8,000 or 10,000 acres. The officials here in the State seemed to be very anxious to do what they could do, but were, of course, subject to orders from headquarters, and in very many places where the cattlemen were very anxious to burn we were not allowed the privilege of burning; not because of the forest, but because of the conservation of water supply-which was all right.

Down in Arizona I have had a piece of ground in one national forest for 17 years, and I can show you perhaps a hundred thousand acres where 17 years ago there was hardly any brush, and that only about a foot high, where to-day it is thickly overgrown with brush 6 or 8 feet high. Now, the cattle have been in that country all that time. We have asked the privilege of burning it and they have always refused to have it burned. Of course it is very much harder to handle the cattle in a place where the brush is from 6 to 10 feet high than it is where there is no brush.

Senator ODDIE. Have you had experience with the advisory boards in the various localities adjacent to the forest reserves?

Mr. BIXBY. Not so very much; but I don't think the advisory boards cut very much of a figure.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know whether or not they are consulted regarding improvements on the range?

Mr. BIXBY. Perhaps, on occasions.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know whether they are consulted as to the turning-out date on the forest reserves?

Mr. BIXBY. I think not to any great extent.

Senator ODDIE. Have you ever been a member of the advisory board?

Mr. BIXBY. No.

Senator ODDIE. What is your opinion as to the rules and regulations of the Forest Service regarding the opening date of the range in the spring?

Mr. BIXBY. I have considered them very arbitrary. I can point out a case in Oregon a year ago, a dry year. The cattlemen asked to have the time put ahead for a month, and they were refused. At the time they opened the forest reserve the grass was dry-gone.

Senator ODDIE. Did that result in an economic loss to the industry? Mr. BIXBY. It did.

Senator ODDIE. Did it result in holding back the normal condition of the cattle in the spring?

Mr. BIXBY. Oh, yes.

Senator ODDIE. In other words, do you believe that cattle to be normal and healthy should have the early spring grass on the range? Mr. BIXBY. They certainly should.

Senator ODDIE. Did that action in Oregon result in compelling the owners of the cattle to herd them more than they otherwise would?

Mr. BIXBY. No; it resulted in their having to feed them on their privately owned areas to such an extent that at the time they had to take them out of the forest reserve there was nothing for them at all, and therefore they had to buy hay, perhaps, or cake, or something. Senator ODDIE. Did that result in a loss to the stockmen? Mr. BIXBY. It did result in a very grave loss up in Oregon. Senator ODDIE. Did it result in increasing the cost of production? Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know of other cases of that kind?

Mr. BIXBY. That is the only case that I have absolute knowledge of. In our part of the country, in Arizona, we have the cattle through the year-a year-long permit. Therefore we don't have that trouble.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that matters of this kind should be left to the determination of the local stockmen?

Mr. BIXBY. They should have a considerable voice in the matter; in fact, they ought to have a great deal to say about that.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that the cattle if allowed to go on the range at the natural time would injure the range?

Mr. BIXBY. The cattle know the time to move.

Senator ODDIE. They know the time when they prefer to go on certain sections of the range?

Mr. BIXBY. They don't need any advice from the Forest Service. The CHAIRMAN. And they know when to come back as well as go, don't they?

Mr. BIXBY. You bet they do.

Senator ODDIE. If they are allowed to follow their own natural instincts in this matter, will it result in better condition of the cattle in the fall?

Mr. BIXBY. Very much-and the time of going would depend upon the seasons, too.

Senator ODDIE. Would the cattle be good judges as to the time of going?

Mr. BIXBY. They would, absolutely.

Senator ODDIE. Would their being allowed to follow their own instincts in this matter result in injury to the range?

Mr. BIXBY. I think not.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe, then, that the livestock owners themselves would prefer that they be allowed to determine the date when the cattle should be put on the range?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Would they themselves consider the natural instincts of the cattle?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes. They know more about it than the people in authority on the forest reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. Do they not have the highest regard for the conservation of the resources of the forest reserve?

Mr. BIXBY. I would say almost always. There may be a few that do not; and even those few, if they had a surety that they were going to have that same piece of ground again, would conserve everything. That is why I am so anxious to have a term tenure. That is the most important thing that we must have-that is, on the forest reserve and on the unappropriated public domain.

The CHAIRMAN. Do the stockmen conserve the forage on their privately-owned holdings?

Mr. BIXBY. Oh, certainly.

Senator ODDIE. Would a definite tenure with a possibility of an increase of fees in the future tend to unstabilize the industry?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes; because they would not know what the grazing fee would be.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe the industry would be more stable and prosperous if the producers could figure mcre definitely as to the overhead cost?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Have you a 10-year permit now on any of your range?

Mr. BIXBY. No; but I understand that in Arizona they are giving some of the 10-year permits.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think there is a lack of knowledge on the part of some officials of the Forest Service, or a failure to distinguish between a perishable and a nonperishable crop? I refer to the crop of timber and the crop of forage on the same land.

Mr. BIXBY. Of course, your grasses are an annual product. The timber can stay on the land for years and still be valuable. Yes: there may be ignorance on the part of the Forest Service on that subject.

Senator ODDIE. Does the action of the Forest Service in keeping stock off the range when it is time for the stock to go on the range mean the loss of that perishable crop?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes: it does.

Senator ODDIE. Have you known of any cases where permittees have been cut in number of stock on the reserves?

Mr. BIXBY. That is a very important matter, because of some of the rulings that are now in vogue, the primary difficulty being that if an owner sells an outfit the new buyer is cut a certain per cent. Also, if the Forest Service officials decide ever so often that the country is overstocked you must cut your cattle down. They only have in the Forest Service an estimate of the number of cattle that are grazing; therefore they are not competent to tell whether you are overgrazing your part of the country or not. The man who owns the

cattle is much more competent to tell whether or not he is overstocked than the forest officials are, because he has a better knowledge as to the number of cattle he owns than the officials have. I remember a few years ago I turned in the actual calf brandings, and the next year I had to remove 1,600 head of cattle. It happened to be a dry year in the State of California, and that put me in a very bad fix. That apparently was decided by the Forest Service. There was nothing said by me about it at all; I was ordered to remove 1,600 head of cattle.

Senator ODDIE. Did that result in depreciating the value of your dependent property?

Mr. BIXBY. My outfit has not any dependent property; I am en tirely within the forest reserve.

Senator ODDIE. Did it result in financial loss to you?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Because of the increased cost of production?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes; because of the fact that it was a dry year in the State of California, where I had to ship them. I was unable to sell them down there and had to ship them to California.

Senator ODDIE. Does the amount of precipitation from year to year have more to do with the condition of the range than the amount of grazing?

Mr. BIXBY. I think so; yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do the Forest Service officials determine these matters at times in a dry or abnormal year?

Mr. BIXBY. I can't say that they plan to do that.

Senator ODDIE. I do not mean that they purposely plan to do anything out of the way, but does that occur as a matter of mistaken judgment?

Mr. BIXBY. Oh, I think there is a good deal of mistaken judgment. Senator ODDIE. If the matter were left to the permittees, would they best determine the carrying capacity of the range?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes; they would really know more about the situation. The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Mr. Bixby, unless you have a further

statement to make.

Mr. BIXBY. Well, I have not anything further to say, only if you people happen to think of anything else I could meet with you in Los Angeles day after to-morrow and would be glad to answer anything you want to ask.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you, Mr. Bixby. Mr. Rice.

STATEMENT OF H. M. RICE, SECRETARY CALIFORNIA CATTLE RAISERS' ASSOCIATION, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rice, are you engaged in the livestock industry?

Mr. RICE. No, sir; not directly.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a representative of the cattlemen's association?

Mr. RICE. Yes; of California.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement that you will make to this committee, Mr. Rice, in your own way?

43213-25-PT 14-7

Mr. RICE. Nothing, Senator, more than that the California Cattle Men's Association wishes to go on record before you absolutely on the stand taken at the Salt Lake conference at the time of the meeting in August.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, both as to the forest reserve and the public domain?

Mr. RICE. Yes, as well as the national parks and game preserves. The CHAIRMAN. Did they go on record as being opposed to further extensions of the national parks?

Mr. RICE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you concur in that?

Mr. RICE. Yes, sir. We merely wanted to get on your record here that we are behind that list of recommendations on the three subjects which were adopted at the meetings in Salt Lake City.

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Rice, do you believe that the policy and the regulations of the Forest Service in segregating the cattle and sheep grazing areas has been beneficial?

Mr. RICE. I do not quite understand your question.
Senator ODDIE. In keeping them apart?

Mr. RICE. Yes; I should think that would be beneficial.

Senator ODDIE. What is your idea as to the regulations of the Forest Service in regard to the turning-out date in the spring?

Mr. RICE. From my knowledge of that question, I think that considerably more leniency should be given the stockmen in determining that date, depending upon the season and the climate.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know of the operations of the advisory boards in the various districts?

Mr. RICE. In some places I do; yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know whether the advisory boards have been consulted as to the turning-out date, for instance?

Mr. RICE. I know that in some instances they have been; in some instances they have not been.

Senator ODDIE. In the cases where they have been, do you know whether their advice has been followed?

Mr. RICE. About what, Senator?

Senator ODDIE. About the turning-out date.

Mr. RICE. It is my impression, in most cases that I am familiar with, that the date is somewhat arbitrarily set, and the stockmen are expected to comply with that, and the cattle are counted on and off the forest reserve at that time.

Senator ODDIE. Do you understand that the local men are instructed from headquarters as to the date?

Mr. RICE. Generally; yes.

Senator ODDIE. And do you believe that that is an unwise restriction on the local Forest Service officials?

Mr. RICE. I do, where the stockmen have had no voice. Perhaps where they have had a voice-I think it is the consensus of opinion, at least with the majority in that area or allotment, that such a date is right, and perhaps they ought to comply with it instead of a few going on to-day and some more going on earlier or later.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think this matter should be left to the local men for decision?

Mr. RICE. I think as a group it should; yes.