Mr. BIXBY. Well, I am sure that there should be some sort of classification of this unappropriated area; that is, the portion of it that would be all right to homestead, and the portion of it that would be of no particular value except to the sheepmen and the cattlemen for the purpose of getting grass.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Bixby, for the purpose of perfect or the most nearly perfect control I think we generally recognize that the most perfect control of landed areas is that of private ownership.

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not possible that some provision might be made whereby these lands might be purchased in large areas from the Government with a price fixed on them so as to bring them into private ownership?

Mr. BIXBY. I think so; but I am of the opinion that the price or the generally conceded value of the unappropriated area by the Government is too high. I do not think any one could afford to buy it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, at a price that was a right price they would be purchased and would pass into private ownership?

Mr. BIXBY I think to quite an extent. I understand that the State holdings in Arizona are offered for sale at $3.50 an acre; is that right?

The CHAIRMAN. I believe there is some provision for sale of State lands.

Mr. BIXBY. The people in the State of Arizona in the cattle business can not afford to pay the State $3.50 an acre for that land.

The CHAIRMAN. But if the price was made sufficiently low?

Mr. BIXBY. If the price was in accordance with the value of the grazing, or in accordance with the amount of income that you could possibly get by the purchase of that piece of ground, I think it would be all right.

The CHAIRMAN. Private ownership of grazing areas is the most perfect stabilization that a livestock man could possibly have? Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Because then he is absolutely certain, excepting that the Government may come in and tax him beyond his endurance, but that is the only menace that would confront him? Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Oddie, have you some questions?

Senator ODDIE. Mr. Bixby, what is the financial condition of the cattle-raising industry in general in the West? Is it prosperous or otherwise?

Mr. BIXBY. We are still very close to the bottom. Just beginning, perhaps, to hold up our heads a little.

Senator ODDIE. In the last few years have cattle been raised at a profit in this western country?

Mr. BIXBY. No.

Senator ODDIE. Have they been raised at a loss?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes. That is proven by the fact that hundreds of the old cattle producers are out of business all over the West. You might say thousands have been put out of business in the last four years.

Senator ODDIE. Are you familiar with the report made last year by R. L. Adams of the agricultural experiment station of the University of California as to the cost of raising cattle?

Mr. BIXBY. It seems to me that the report was to the effect that it cost $32.60 or $36.20 to produce a yearling steer. If that is the case I am broke, and I have always been broke.

Senator ODDIE. I think he made it $38.

Mr. BIXBY. Well, then, I am worse than broke.

Senator ODDIE. Can the cattle raisers who use the forest reserves for grazing stand an increase in fees for grazing?

Mr. BIXBY. They can not.

Senator ODDIE. What would the effect of increased fees be on the industry?

Mr. BIXBY. That some more would go out of business.

The CHAIRMAN. Would an increase in fees tend to lessen the value of dependent ranch property?

Mr. BIXBY. Certainly.

The CHAIRMAN. And thereby eliminate the source of revenue through taxation that goes to support local and State government? Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Would an act of the Government which would throw an additional burden on the livestock industry and thereby depreciate the value of dependent property be equivalent to taking a man's property without due process of law?

Mr. BIXBY. Purely confiscation; that is all.

Senator ODDIE. Should that be done without governmental recompense of some sort?

Mr. BIXBY. No; but I can not see any method whereby you could force the Government to come through with any recompense.

Senator ODDIE. To use very plain English, do you think it is a square and honest act on the part of the Government to attempt to throw an extra burden on the stock-raising industry?

Mr. BIXBY. I do not; and especially the cattle.

Senator ODDIE. Are you familiar with the effort that the Forest Service has made in the last year or so to increase the fees?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes. You refer to the Rachford report, I assume? Senator ODDIE. Yes; and previous to that. The effort that was made by the Forest Service to raise fees last year?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes. As I said at the convention in Salt Lake City, I was very much opposed to that report at the start, and I have been opposed to it all the time; and now that it is finished I am very much opposed to it. In the State of California it increases the fee in a good many cases 140 or 150 per cent. The report is based on privately owned areas similar to areas in the national forest generally adjoining the forest reserve. I do not think that is the proper basis at all, and if it is not the proper basis the whole report is wrong.

Senator ODDIE. Are the comparisons in that report between the cost of grazing on the national forests and on privately owned lands fairly and correctly made?

Mr. BIXBY. Perhaps to the best of the ability of the people who got up the report; but it is all wrong from start to finish, because their basis is wrong.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think that the comparisons given in the report as existing between the privately owned land and the forest reserve in the matter of costs of grazing are correct?

Mr. BIXBY. Personaly, I do not. But I am of the opinion that the sponsors of that report have thought that they were honest in their opinions.

Senator ODDIE. Have the forest reserve grazing fees in the last few years been anywhere near parallel with the prices of cattle to the producers?

Mr. BIXBY. I do not think that that would come into consideration at all in any way.

Senator ODDIE. What is your idea as to the fees in the last 10 years? Have they been raised or lowered?

Mr. BIXBY. They have been increased I think twice.

Senator ODDIE. And in that time has the price of beef to the producers increased or decreased?

Mr. BIXBY. During the war of course they were increased.
Senator ODDIE. Say since the war.

Mr. BIXBY. Since the war they have gone all to pieces.

Senator ODDIE. Have the costs of producing beef that is, in labor and supplies and other costs besides the fees-increased or decreased since the war?

Mr. BIXBY. Increased, and the prices received now for the beef cattle are approximately the pre-war prices.

Senator ODDIE. In other words, then, the cost of production of cattle has increased since the war, the grazing fees have increased, and the price of cattle to the producer has gone down since the war? Mr. BIXBY. Yes, and the cattle producers have gone broke and quit the business.

Senator ODDIE. What effect does that have on the small farmer in the country?

Mr. BIXBY. How do you mean?

Senator ODDIE. Well, in regard to the market for the product of the small farmer? Does it tend to reduce his market for his hay and grain, or otherwise?

Mr. BIXBY. The farmers in our part of the country have not been able to make anything for several years, so perhaps this has had quite a little bearing on that situation.

Senator ODDIE. Will an unprosperous cattle-raising industry result in a decreased market to the small farmer for his hay and grain?

Mr. BIXBY. Certainly; always.

Senator ODDIE. So you believe then that the small farmer is dependent on a successful livestock industry?

Mr. BIXBY. To a very great extent, yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that there is an interdependence of industries which means that the basic industries of our whole country are interested in the success of the livestock industry? Mr. BIXBY. Certainly and assuredly.

Senator ODDIE. Do you know of certain statements that are being published in the press throughout the country advocating an increase in grazing fees on the forest reserve?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes. I have this copy here that was given to me: "Shall the stockmen control the national forest?"

Senator ODDIE. This article in question by the American Forestry Association. Are you familiar with the stumpage fees charged lumbermen on the national forests?

Mr. BIXBY. I am afraid I am not. I am of the opinion, though, concerning that, that if we are not very careful the lumber companies will get the timber and the people in the United States will pay for the planting of new trees.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that the curve representing the grazing fees since the war should rise more than the curve of stumpage fees charged the lumbermen on the forest reserves?

Mr. BIXBY. No. Colonel Greeley himself, you know, said that the forest reserve fees to-day were three times the cost of handling the grazing situation in the forest reserves. I am of the opinion that the permittees are paying three times the grazing fee that they should pay. That is to say, they should pay to the Government the cost of the protection and regulation, and no more. I have always thought that.

Senator ODDIE. What do you think of the policy of charging a profit in excess of the cost of administration of the grazing privilege?

Mr. BIXBY. I think that is entirely against the old idea. If I can remember, it was originally planned that the charge for the grass would be a nominal charge, that the forest reserves were created for the purpose of conservation and that the grass was to be handed out to the permittees at merely a nominal figure. It has resulted, however, in the people that are using the grass paying three times the cost of handling the grass on the forest reserves, and that is against the original idea.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think that if the question of the amount of fees to be charged in the future for these grazing permits were left to the Bureau of Forestry there is a possibility that they would still insist on charging a profit?

Mr. BIXBY. I have always had in mind the thought that the grazing in the forest reserves should be handled on a budget system; any collections from a certain forest reserve should be on the cost of administering the grazing business in that forest reserve. Any of the moneys collected in a forest reserve should not be sent to some other forest reserve in order to make up a deficit in that other forest reserve. They should handle it on a budget system, and the permittees should have something to say concerning the budget. In other words, there should be a representative of the permittees on the budget committee. That has always been my personal idea concerning the fees to be charged in a forest reserve.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think that the action of the Forest Service in attempting to raise fees indicates that it was not conversant with the livestock industry and with the costs involved in raising cattle?

Mr. BIXBY. The forest supervisors, or the Forest Service, consider that they know a great deal about the condition of cattle industry. I am of the opinion that they don't know all they ought to know.

Senator ODDIE. If they believe they know all about the cattle industry, as you intimate, the proposal from them for a further increase in fees would show

Mr. BIXBY. That they did not.

Senator ODDIE. Either that they did not know about the condition of the cattle industry or that they desired to place an extra burden upon it?

Mr. BIXBY. Yes.

Senator ODDIE. Do you think that articles published in the press of the country such as I have just suggested will have the effect of creating an erroneous public opinion regarding the condition of the cattle industry?

Mr. BIXBY. I should think that was perhaps the fundamental cause of the publication of that article; that was why it was published.

Senator ODDIE. Would such an act be detrimental to a basic industry of our country?

Mr. BIXBY. I certainly think so.

Senator ODDIE. Will a material injury to one of our basic industries adversely affect the people of the whole country?

Mr. BIXBY. Absolutely. I might say that in this magazine you might go over the list of the sponsors for it, or the owners of it, and perhaps decide reasons for the publishing of this article.

Senator ODDIE. Should there be any competition or any feeling of antagonism or jealousy or anything of that kind between the lumber industry and the cattle industry?

Mr. BIXBY. I hardly think there is. I don't think there is any feeling of jealousy between us at all.

Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that the two industries are in complete harmony and anxious to see each other succeed?

Mr. BIXBY. I have never seen a case where either of the two industries tried to do any great amount of damage to the other. Senator ODDIE. Is each industry dependent for a certain amount of success upon the success of the other industry?

Mr. BIXBY. Absolutely.

Senator ODDIE. Is it right for articles to be published which might create in the public mind an impression that there was rivalry between industries of that kind?

Mr. BIXBY. I think that is rotten, because it fosters and creates that old feeling that we in our part of the country have had to combat for years the eastern part of the United States against the West. No good can ever come from the publication of an article like that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bixby, referring to this article published in The American Forest and Forest Review, entitled "Shall the stockmen control the national forest?" as head of the stockmen's organization, The American National Live Stock Association, do you know of any disposition or desire on the part of any members of your association to acquire control of the national forests? Mr. BIXBY. None whatever.

The CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, is not all they are contending for relief from interference that is destructive in the management