of checking it up myself. Ordinarily they move from one tree into an adjacent tree, but we do know that in some instances they have gone as far as a mile from the nearest infested tree. Senator ODDIE. Are you familiar with the conditions in Montana? Senator ODDIE. Some testimony was presented which showed that a particular pine infestation jumped something like a hundred miles from one forest section to another. What is the effect of these forest infestations on the fire hazard? Mr. BLACK. A greatly increased fire hazard. In many cases it has made it so severe that if the private owner were able to do so he would for his own protection be very glad to keep it closed to all use. I think in some places that would be very essential. Senator ODDIE. What is the effect of these infestations on the protection of watersheds? Mr. BLACK. If the entire cover were removed by insects, the watershed value would be greatly reduced. However, inasmuch as the underbrush is not affected by the beetle, and inasmuch as the underbrush affords watershed protection, I can not say that it would have a great deal of effect. However, on a large area of timber where everything is taken and where there is no underbrush, that effect would be found. That does exist in California in some places. Senator ODDIE. Do you think a campaign of education throughout the country on this question would be beneficial or otherwise? Mr. BLACK. I do not see where a campaign of education would be so very beneficial, unless it had the effect of impressing upon Congress the need for appropriating money to take care of the timber. What we need is money to fight this beetle, rather than to let people know that we have the loss. Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that these comparatively small appropriations by Congress for this work are the result of a lack of understanding of this question by Congressmen and Senators generally? Mr. BLACK. Yes. As an example, where the eastern Senators and Representatives are familiar with the gypsy moth loss, they have appropriated Federal moneys for the protection of private shade trees. Where they are not familiar with our western conditions, we get very little money for any protection. Senator ODDIE. Has the spruce bud worm gotten any start in your State? Mr. BLACK. Not in California. Senator ODDIE. You are familiar with the damage it has done in other western States? Mr. BLACK. Yes. Senator ODDIE. Do you believe that with larger appropriations more investigational work could be done which the bureau can not afford to have done to-day? Mr. BLACK. I know that to be a fact. Senator ODDIE. Does the lack of sufficient appropriations prevent the bureau from doing as much of this scientific investigational work as it should do? Mr. BLACK. It prevents the bureau from doing the investigational work that should be done, and prevents them from employing technical men trained in our universities and otherwise. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Black, do you believe that insect infestation of the forests is controllable? Mr. BLACK. I do. The CHAIRMAN. Do you think a complete control could be brought about? Mr. BLACK. I believe that to all practical intents and purposes complete control could be brought about where the timber is of sufficient value to warrant that control, but I do not think our present crude methods of control should be applied to the entire western area until after we have made a more determined effort to find more economical methods of control. I think Congress would be unwilling to expend the large amounts of money that would be necessary under the present crude methods to cover the entire area. The CHAIRMAN. Then, for the time being, is it your opinion that the appropriations which are made should be used for the study of methods of control? Mr. BLACK. I think by all means appropriations should be made for that specific purpose, but I do not think the other appropriations should be discontinued where there is sufficient value in the timber to warrant the present control work. The CHAIRMAN. Are you familiar with the effort that was made in southern Oregon and northern California to control the pine-beetle infestation? Mr. BLACK. For two years I had charge of the Government end of that work. The CHAIRMAN. Did you have charge during the time that the $150,000 appropriated by Congress was expended? Mr. BLACK. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. And that was matched by private timber owners, to make a fund of $300,000? Mr. BLACK. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. What success was obtained by that expenditure? Mr. BLACK. We found a varying amount of success—that is, on the actual reduction in one particular location as against that in another. But over the whole area taken as a unit we found that the money expended showed a saving of a greater amount in the timber killed the following year. That is, it paid for itself. The CHAIRMAN. Then it was a success from a monetary standpoint? Mr. BLACK. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have anything to do with fire protection? Mr. BLACK. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Do you meet with any difficulty or embarrassment on account of the Goverment-owned timberlands, other than within the national forests, which are under the jurisdiction of the Interior Department? Mr. BLACK. No; because the amount of such lands that bear merchantable timber is very small. My work is entirely connected with the merchantable timber of the State. The CHAIRMAN. And in California you have very little merchantable timber on the public domain? Mr. BLACK. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. However, there is a different condition in other States? Mr. BLACK. It is different in other States. There is a different condition in Oregon, for example. The CHAIRMAN. Where there is Government-controlled timber, timber on the public domain, do you believe some appropriation should be made for cooperation by the Interior Department with other timber interests? Mr. BLACK. By all means. I think the Department of the Interior should be allowed the same rate per acre per year as the private interests put up themselves. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you have any supervision over the grazing of privately owned timber lands? Mr. BLACK. No; that is contracted out by the individual companies. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you have anything to do with the letting of the contracts? Mr. BLACK. No. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you observed the effect on the forage of grazing and privately owned timber lands? Mr. BLACK. I do not think it has been detrimental in any case. Mr. BOWDEN. What system is used on the privately owned timber lands in providing for the grazing of such lands? Mr. BLACK. The ordinary system is to get as much as they can in annual rental. Mr. BOWDEN. That is, the areas are leased out? Mr. BLACK. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you consider that the grazing of livestock in those timbered areas is advantageous in keeping down the fire hazard? Mr. BLACK. I think so. The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Mr. Black. Thank you. Mr. Bigelow. STATEMENT OF H. E. BIGELOW, SHEEP AND CATTLE RAISER, O'NEILL, CALIF. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bigelow, how long have you been engaged in the cattle business? Mr. BIGELOW. Well, ever since I have lived where I am, and I went into that territory in 1887-since about 1893, I think, I have had cattle; just a few along, more or less, at different times, as things changed there. The CHAIRMAN. Have you been grazing within the confines of the national forest ever since it was created? Mr. BIGELOW. No; I have not. I grazed in the vicinity of O'Neill, and then at last we lost our land through the homestead act, and the consequence was we went into the cattle business. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze upon the public domain at the present time? Mr. BIGELOW. No, sir; we have none. The CHAIRMAN. Entirely within the confines of the national forest? Mr. BIGELOW. Well, on our own lands and leased land and in the forest reserve. The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement that you will make to this committee in your own way? Mr. BIGELOW. Well, I can tell you our situation, just how I have to run my business in order to make it successful and to stay in the business. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Mr. BIGELOW. We will take the sheep at the present time. My sheep are to-day on the way out of the forest reserve, away back. My summer range is in what is known now as the annex to the Yosemite National Park. They are supposed to be out on the 26th. When they arrive in the valley we go on to the vineyards, right straight from the forest reserve to the vineyards. The CHAIRMAN. Do you graze in the vineyards? Mr. BIGELOW. Yes, sir; I have 500 acres of vineyard contracted for that will carry me up till the rains come, and the frost, and then I go on to my winter range. I keep my sheep there all through the winter, lamb out and everything, until the 1st of April. The 1st of April we shear-or perhaps the latter part of March, depending upon the season. As soon as we get our sheep sheared we get our wool away as quick as possible. That country begins to dry up, you see, and this is down in the valley, or in the edge of the foothills. I have a little map here that will probably give you an idea how this thing works [producing a map and indicating thereon places referred to]. There is where my sheep run now. They are leaving this area here The CHAIRMAN. In the forest reserve? Mr. BIGELOW. In the forest reserve. This is supposed to be the annex, what they are trying to annex to the Yosemite National Park. This is the Sierra National Forest. The yellow and the red are where the sheep and cattle run together. This red area here is all confined to cattle, and the yellow is confined to sheep. The green is a closed area; no stock go on that. This is the area that they want to annex to the Sequoia National Park. The CHAIRMAN. Why is it closed? Mr. BIGELOW. It is closed for the simple reason that some sheepman, I understand, violated some of the rules of the Forest Service, failed to comply with the rules and regulations of the Forest Service, and they said, "We will close it. You either have got to recognize our rules and regulations or you can not have it." That is all right; they should. While we are on this map, you will see these little dots here. Those are pastures or holding places provided by the Government, so that the stockmen from this area in here can camp in these little areas before they get into the forest reserve. Then these little green spots are what are known as tourist pastures. They are fenced, to take care of whoever might go in there. There is the point. Some sheepmen have used some of these little pastures and you must not do it. If you do your permit is revoked and you will lose your right to your range. So we respect all of those pastures. So, as I say, we are going out now, coming on down here into the valley and on to the vineyards. Then we drift back up into this foothill country and lamb out and shear and get ready to go back in. The 1st of April I start and get up in here to my spring range. I stay there until the latter part of June, and from there I go back to here, to the high altitude, off in the seventy-seventh district, up in that mineral land where all the mines are and everything. Now, we can not get along without this national forest. I am in Madero County and our line is about 40 miles from the south line to the north line. I think there is about 12 miles in there that is confined to nothing but cattle and sheep grazing, and we use that for winter range. After that is consumed we have to go to the forest reserve, because we have no other place to go. We have to stay in here until the grain is harvested and the grapes are picked before we can get any feed. So then we stay in the forest reserve until such time as that is harvested, and then we immediately go on to the tillable land and on to the vineyards and on to the cotton fields after the cotton is picked. You might say we are scavengers; we eat up everything that nothing else wants. The CHAIRMAN. About what is your cost of operation per ewe per year? Mr. BIGELOW. It varies. I have a little memorandum here of what it costs me to operate in the mountains and also what it costs me to operate in the valley. The supposition has been, I understand, in the East that we get our pasture in the forest reserve for nothing. To run 2,000 head of sheep in the mountains for five months cost me $2,770.50, or $554.10 a month. That is in the forest reserve. That is absolutely what it is costing me this year. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bigelow, I think it would be well to have that memorandum inserted in the record at this point. (The memorandum referred to is here printed in full, as follows:) Cost of running 2,000 head of sheep in reserve per month Grazing fees Two herders__ One packer Provisions for 3 men and 4 dogs-- Pasture on pack stock (winter), 4 horses and 2 jacks.. Sheep lost. Putting bucks in.. Depreciation on mountain equipment---- Total_. For five months-- $72.00 200.00 70.00 90.00 17.00 80.00 15. 10 10.00 554. 10 2,770.50 Mr. BIGELOW. Here are my figures for running the same number of sheep in the valley. This year it cost me $90 less for grass. These figures are the maximum, the highest price I have ever paid, outside of a dry year, when I had to buy corn and hay and such as that. This is on normal conditions. (Handing memorandum to the chairman.) The CHAIRMAN. I ask to have this memorandum inserted in the record at this point. 43213-25-PT 14- -6 |