STATEMENT OF J. F. BRANSON, STOCK RAISER, ALBUQUERQUE, N. MEX.

Senator CAMERON (presiding). Will you give your full name and your address to the reporter?

Mr. BRANSON. J. F. Branson. Albuquerque, N. Mex. Part of my time I am in McKinley County.

Senator CAMERON. You are interested in railroad lands and school lands and checkerboard lands, is that the idea?

Mr. BRANSON. No. While Mr. Swope was here on the stand, or when Senator Jones was asking him some questions relative to the school lands and other lands that were mixed up with the railroad lands, I thought I would say something concerning that. I purchased from the railroad company a few years ago a township out here in McKinley County, that is, all of the patented lands that were in this township. There is a small portion of this township that is forest--that is in the forest-and then I own every alternate section of the remaining lands, and the other alternate sections are either owned by the State or it belongs to the Government, and there are one or two homesteaders there. And under the conditions that I am in it is absolutely impractical for me to prepare and hold any winter range. And for a man to be successful in this western county in handling-well, I will say cattle, for I have had very little experience with sheep-you must prepare for the winter. And under the conditions that existed it has been impossible for me to segregate any considerable portion of my lands and hold that for the winter, which would be from, I will say, February on until about May. I will call that the critical season.

The reason for that is because these Government lands that are mixed up with mine-my neighbors, maybe there will be somebody before I get ready to use that in the late winter that will be in there and graze it off unless I am very vigilant and watch. And it makes it very impractical, and it is almost a matter of impossibility for a man in this western country to raise-well, I will say cows and I believe that that feature has caused more cows to die and more cowmen to go broke that is, if we will eliminate his speculative propensities-I believe that that feature of the western. country has caused more people to lose money on cattle than any other one thing, except this speculative proposition and the changes in prices like we have had in the last few years.

Now I don't know what remedy Congress could give. I would be glad to exchange, but as I understand the exchange law it only applies to forest lands. I have no lands in the forest, and I have no timbered lands. I thought perhaps the law did apply.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well now, Mr. Branson, in order to conduct a cattle business up there successfully it requires a considerable area, doesn't it?

Mr. BRANSON. Yes, sir.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And I just wondered if it would be practical to handle that country successfully if you consolidated the lands in each township, letting the checkerboard lands be consolidated so there would be a half of the township go to the owner of the railroad lands, and the other half to the Government or whoever owned the nonrailroad land. Do you think half a township

would be a sufficient area there to enable you to conduct a successful business?

Mr. BRANSON. No; it would not. It would not be an area that would be satisfactory to me. But it would be satisfactory to some classes of people. Neither would two or three townships be an area satisfactory to some people.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, now, we will say you own half of that township, and the other half belongs to the State or Federal Government; what arrangement could you make or would you be willing to make regarding the Federal Government land?

Mr. BRANSON. Well, if the Federal Government held the land I would like to lease it, would be the next proposition. But if they passed a leasing law, I could lease the sections without any consolidation. That would be the condition there.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, now, as long as it remains a checkerboard situation you would be the only one who would be in position to lease it, would you not?

Mr. BRANSON. Well, yes.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And would you be willing to have a consolidation, say the Federal Government owned half that township and you the other half, and take your chances on leasing the Federal lands?

Mr. BRANSON. Yes, sir; I would be willing to do that. Then I could fence half of it and run that to suit myself. And I could take my chances. You have no trouble in getting through in the summertime anyhow. It is the winter that gets you.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. But you would rather have half that township and absolutely control it and take your chances on getting an opportunity to use the other half or make some other arrangement?

Mr. BRANSON. Certainly I would.

Now, before we leave this, since you have talked so much on this forest proposition, in my particular case there are about two sections that lie under a high mesa that joins me that belongs to the forest. To get into that forest they almost invariably have to go over me. That is, they can get in another way, but it is very impractical. And I went to the Forest Service and asked them to lease what lands were under the mesa to me, but they said that under the rules and regulations I would have to specify how many cows I wanted to run on it, and a lot of things that would have made it absolutely impractical for me to do that, because I wanted to throw that in with the remainder of my lands, don't you see, and I couldn't tell how many would be on theirs and how many would be on mine, and neither could I tell him just when or what months I would have my cattle on this forest. because I wanted to use it just to the best advantage.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. It was a small tract of land on the edge of the forest isolated from the rest of the forest?

Mr. BRANSON. Yes.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. And it was naturally a part of your range

there?

Mr. BRANSON. Yes.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. In such case it seems to me that the forest official should have recognized the actual conditions there and permitted you to go ahead and do what you wanted to do.

Mr. BRANSON. Well, it is the only practical thing to do. And he would have acquiesced in it, I am satisfied. But that was about two years ago that I had that talk with him over that proposition.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, do you think it would be a proper solution to pass a law providing that each of these railroad townships should be divided as between the Government and the State and the railroad, according to the value of the land to be appraised? If it is all of equal value, why then the railroad take half of it and the Government take the other half?

Mr. BRANSON. Yes; in the absence of any better law. A leasing law or turning it over to the State, either one might solve the problem.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. You think a half township would be a sufficiently large unit?

Mr. BRANSON. I believe in this western country, of the kind of a country that that is, a man on a half township could run enough cattle to support a family if he was not too extravagant.

Senator CAMERON. And if he had plenty of rain?

Mr. BRANSON. Well, in that particular locality we will have an average of about 15 inches of rain. And I have never known the country not to have enough grass to support some cattle.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. That is all. Thank you very much.

This concludes all hearings, and I want to say to the gentlemen of this section of the country, especially the State of New Mexico, that we have had a wonderful hearing here, and we want you to remember that in order to get the remedial legislation that you have outlined to us we must have your support, because we are going to meet many obstacles down in Washington from our eastern Members. especially in the House. I think we will have pretty good success in the Senate, but it is going to be a hard proposition to handle this range question in the House.

I want to say to you on behalf of the committee that we will do our everlasting best to see if we can not work out a solution that will be beneficial to the stockmen of the western country.

I might say to any of the stockmen here, or anyone who is interested in this public-land question, that this committee is not adjourning and will not adjourn for several months, and if you have anything you want to send in to the committee we will be glad to hear from you, and will insert in the record any statement that you have to offer the committee on public-land questions.

(Pursuant to the order of the chairman, the following letters are made a part of the record and inserted as follows:)

Hon. A. A. JONES,

Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C.

OCTOBER 16, 1925.

MY DEAR SENATOR: On account of the sudden death of Mr. Samuel Eldodt I was called to Santa Fe and was unable to attend the hearings here in Albuquerque on October 9 and 10.

I just wish to say that I am particularly strong for the Forest Service. They handle themselves very well in every way and have a thoroughly competent organization. Without their protection, I do not know where we would be, with the range reduced as it now is, as compared to former years.

In regard to the public domain, I am very much against State ownership or control. Personally I would like to see all the public domain in charge of the Forest Service. On account of their splendid organization and long

experience, I feel confident that they would handle it more efficiently than it could possibly be handled in any other manner.

You probably know that we are very heavily interested in sheep in New Mexico. In fact, we and our associates own more sheep than any other individual or organization in the State. We do not run these sheep ourselves but rent them out mostly in small lots to growers who do not have enough of their own to complete a herd.

These men make a good livelihood and support large families by means of these sheep. They are good citizens and employ a great many men in their communities. Without these sheep they would not be nearly so successful, and it would mean a great hardship should they be forced out of business. If the public domain passed into State control and then into the hands of the politicians and the favored few, it would mean the elimination of the small sheepmen to a very large extent. Frankly, I believe it would be extremely detrimental to every stockman in this State. The change of control that would come with the change of administration every few years would cause a constant squabble, and as a result the stockmen could not depend on any permanent policy.

It is a well-known fact that dry farming in New Mexico has been almost a complete failure except in a very few sections of the State. Some lands have been taken up by dry farmers solely with the hope of selling out at a long price to the stockmen. These dry farm lands have not been utilized to any extent, and the longer they are held the poorer the owners become.

In regard to increasing acreage of homesteads, I feel that the dry farmers can become quite poor enough on what land they already have homesteaded, as the fencing alone is a tremendous outlay for them. It simply cuts down the stockman's grazing acreage and forces him to reduce his herds, which is unquestionably detrimental to the interests of the stockmen of the State.

I know you are very strongly interested in helping the small man, but I think that the interests of the small livestock grower should be considered equally as much as that of the homesteader; more particularly for the reason that the small stockgrower has shown that he can make a success of his business, or at least make a living in this State, whereas the reverse is the case with the dry farmer in this State. The many abandoned homesteads speak for themselves.

In advocating that the Forest Service extend their regulations to the public domain, I have in mind the very competent manner in which they handle homesteaders. That is, they approve the application for a homestead solely when they are convinced that it is agricultural land and can be successfully farmed. Yours very truly,

FRANK BOND.

MAY 13, 1925.

Hon. GEO. K. BOWDEN,

Care of Hon. R. H. CAMERON,

United States Senate.

MY DEAR MR. BOWDEN: At the direction of Senator Jones, I beg to submit herewith a copy of House Joint Memorial No. 3 of the Seventh Legislature of New Mexico, memorializing the Congress of the United States to amend section 9 of the stock raising act. This memorial is being submitted for consideration by your committee.

Very sincerely yours,

F. O. ROTH, Secretary.

State of New Mexico. Seventh Legislature, House Joint Memorial No. 3. Introduced by Hon. R. A. Chavez, of Guadalupe County

MEMORIALIZING THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES TO AMEND SECTION 9 OF THE STOCK RAISING ACT (VOL. 39, PART 1, UNITED STATES STATUTES AT LARGE, PAGE 864), AS APPROVED BY CONGRESS DECEMBER 29, 1916

Whereas the Congress of the United States, on December 29, 1916, approved the stock raising act (vol. 39, part 1, United States Statutes at Large, p. 864), section 9 of which reads as follows:

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'That all entries made and patents issued under the provisions of this act shall be subject to and contain a reservation to the United States of all the

coal and other minerals in the land so entered and patented, together with the right to prospect for, mine, and remove the same."

Whereas it is only just that the patentee of the land should have a fair and reasonable share of the minerals discovered in his land.

Whereas it neither seems reasonable or just that after a person has entered. improved, possessed, and paid taxes on the land for 5, 10, or 20 years, in many cases said person having grown old and feeble, having suffered hardships and privations, and being most in need of the spoils of the land, he should be deprived altogether of the mineral rights, as he is under the existing law. Therefore be it

Resolved, That the State of New Mexico, through the seventh legislature, respectfully memorializes and requests the Congress of the United States to amend said section 9 of the said stock raising act (Vol. 39, part 1, United States Statutes at Large, p. 864) so as to give the patentee of the land a small royalty in and to all the coal and other mineral deposits in such land. Be it further

Resolved, That copies of this memorial be sent to the President of the Senate, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the proper committees in both the Senate and the House of Representatives, the Senators and Representatives from New Mexico in Congress, and to the honorable Secretary of the Interior.

ALAMOGORDO, N. MEX., May 11, 1925.

Senator SAM G. BRATTON,

Santa Fe, N. Mex.

DEAR SENATOR BRATTON: Permit me to express to you my deep appreciation of your interest in the subject of control on public domain.

I believe that it takes a rather intimate acquaintance with public domain conditions and public domain people to fully appreciate the number and extent of detrimental conditions which are directly chargeable to no control on the public domain. For instance, I lived in public domain country for nearly 20 years before I realized that the great Lincoln County war, in which Billy the Kid figured so prominently, was due to the question of who should get the grass from the public domain. That same question has been the foundation of every range war in this county and there have been hundreds of them. Within the past year this county has had two killings, one of which was undisputably a matter of public domain and the other was on public domain and probably over the same question.

Here is another slant which needs more or less intimate acquaintance. The press everywhere is full of "the drought in New Mexico." I am willing to concede that there is a droughty condition in New Mexico, that there is no grass on the range, the mountain springs are drying up, and the cattle are starving to death, but as far as rainfall is concerned the last six years, not including 1924, have had 16.4 per cent more rainfall than the average of 26 years preceeding. The droughty conditions is due to overgrazing on private land and public domain. The overgrazing causes an excessive runoff which reduces the normal flow of the springs and the streams, also reduces the amount of water retained in the soil which naturally reduces the vegetation and produces our "terrible drought." This, of course, is effected by many other conditions as contributing factors.

It is my experience that every irrigation project in this section of the country is suffering from sand flow. Our little projects which supply some 10 or 15 families have the same troubles as the great Elephant Butte, only in less proportion. Let me refer to the specific case of the Elephant Butte, not because it is outstanding but because figures regarding it may be more easily obtained. There is an area of open range country below the dam and west toward the Black Range which is sufficiently eroded each year to supply the sand which raises the river bed that threatens El Paso with overflow. This same sand made necessary the expenditure of three quarters of a million dollars for dredging in that immediate vicinity this year, according to newspaper reports. Thousands of acres of valuable land have been overflowed and left out of cultivation in that section this year from the same cause.

To fight this trouble where the sand settles when the current slows up is like fighting typhoid among the children of the town and leaving unmolested