I don't find much fault with the homestead law, but I think that it leads a great many into entering homesteads in the hope of becoming prosperous in raising cattle that make miserable failures of it, just as thousands of them have done over the West.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. I think I know of sections of the State where much the greater portion of the land has been taken up under the stock-raising homestead law, or the section homestead law, and a large percentage of the settlers have abandoned the lands because they could not make a living on the section, or did not succeed in doing so, whether somebody else might have done so or

not.

Mr. McMILLEN. I think that has been the experience in New Mexico on very large areas.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. But those lands have, however, passed into private ownership, and they are subject to taxation. Do you think that has been a wholesome condition on the whole, or not?

Mr. McMILLEN. As a hypothetical question I would say no; but I do favor individual ownership of all lands, so that they may be taxed and bear their share of the burden. I think it is unfortunate for any State or any community to have a large amount of public land which bears no portion of the burdens of the State. But that is a question a little aside, I think, from the question of what we are going to do with the public lands, so long as they remain a part of the public domain.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, we hope as far as possible to recommend something that will be an ultimate disposition, or rather an ultimate policy for the use of these lands, and that is why these different suggestions have arisen. There are a great many people who believe that nothing should be done to hinder or to retard the passing of the title of these lands into private ownership, and they believe that a leasing system which would have the effect of definitely tying up the use of the land would have that effect.

Mr. McMILLEN. Well, as a matter of opinion, I don't believe it would retard.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Could you think of any method of passing the title into private ownership that would be advisable or practicable?

Mr. McMILLEN. No; I would not want to pass judgment upon such an important question on the spur of the moment. But the ideal solution of all questions is a large amount of taxable property, of course.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Some have objected to any disposition of the title to the lands on the ground that they could not afford to pay taxes on it.

Mr. McMILLEN. Well, there is a great deal in that.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. But that would be dependent, would it not, upon the amount of the taxes?

Mr. McMILLEN. Yes, sir. But I figured out here at one time before the New Mexico Cattle and Horse Growers' Association that at the price that they were attempting to tax grazing lands, counting the investment, taxes on the lands, and taxes on the cattle, it cost $42.50 a head to raise a yearling calf. We were getting about $18 or $19 for him. That is, to count your investment at the rate that they proposed to tax cattle and lands.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. I think any man who is familiar with the livestock industry will appreciate the fact that the way taxes have been in this State the livestock industry could not stand it.

Mr. McMILLEN. Can not exist.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. I have no hesitancy in expressing that as my own view. But if the lands were in private ownership they could afford to pay some taxes, it seems to me.

Mr. McMILLEN. Yes.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Now, in view of this diverse sentiment, do you think it advisable for us to try to devise some means of getting these lands into private ownership?

Mr. McMILLEN. Not at this time. We have gone on from year to year without any proper handling of the public domain, and in my opinion would go on for years and years to come in the same condition if we wait to get ideal solutions. There should be a policy governing the public domain in its present condition and ownership to apply until such time as that policy and ownership is changed.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. What have you to say in regard to donation of all these lands to the respective States?

Mr. MCMILLEN. Well, I would make the same answer as to thatthat that would only postpone, in my opinion, a solution of it; that there should first, and without delay, be a system of control of the public lands by some leasing system, and then the other matters that you mention could be taken up and disposed of. If they did not carry out, we still have the system of control of the public lands. And if they were carried, the system that has been adopted would not hurt the proposition.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Then your suggestion would be for us to try to get some lease law passed and let these other suggestions as to disposition await a more opportune time? Mr. McMILLEN. That is my idea exactly.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. You have nothing to say or, have you, regarding the branch of the Government which should administer the leasing law on the lands outside of the forest reserves?

Mr. McMILLEN. I think that is entirely immaterial to the stock owner. But I do favor a leasing system rather than a permit system.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. That is, lease definite areas of land rather than to grant permits?

Mr. McMILLEN. Yes. To explain my position, the Forest Service, as I understand, attempts to say how many cattle you should range each particular year upon a particular area. That is, if you have lots of grass you ought to raise more cattle; if it is sparse you ought to raise less. Now in the first place that is not practical, because your herd remains practically the same. If the grass is scarce you could not sell them. In the second place the livestock man ought to be a better judge of how to handle a range than a mere administrator of the range.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Is it a practical proposition for a stockman to increase and decrease his herds at the will of anybody else?

Mr. MCMILLEN. It can not be done. When feed is scarce you can not sell them, and when feed is good and your cattle are fat there is ready sale for them usually.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. What is your view as to what should become of the fees derived from the leases?

Mr. McMILLEN. I do not think the livestock raiser is vitally interested in that, except as a taxpayer. And I think some equitable division of the fees derived would be advisable. Although I haven't any very decided views upon the question. It seems to me that the lands within the State ought to help to support its burdens.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Would you turn over to the State treasury a share of those fees, or to the county, or divide them? Mr. McMILLEN. Well, if they were turned over to the State I think they should be distributed in much the same way as the taxes upon the land would be distributed if it were in private ownership.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. A portion to the State, a portion to the county, and so on?

Mr. McMILLEN. Yes, sir; but I would like to say as to that, that I do not think that should interfere with the proper control of the public domain through some leasing law. As that is detail that could be settled at some subsequent time practically as well as a part of

the law.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. I believe that is all.

Senator CAMERON. All right, thank you, Mr. McMillen. Mr. Miller.

STATEMENT OF PRAGER MILLER, PRESIDENT OF THE NEW MEXICO WOOL GROWERS' ASSOCIATION, ROSWELL, N. MEX. Senator CAMERON (presiding). Will you state your full name, your residence, and your occupation, to the reporter, please?

Mr. MILLER. Prager Miller, president of the New Mexico Wool Growers' Association, Roswell, N. Mex.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Miller, you have been president of the New Mexico Wool Growers' Association for a good many years, have you not?

Mr. MILLER. About five years I think, Senator.

Senator CAMERON. Well, you ought to be pretty well posted on the situation as to the wool growers of this State. Will you state to the committee in your own way what you know about the situation over here?

Mr. MILLER. Gentlemen, I feel that after all of the practical and wise testimony that has been given here to this committee by the gentlemen who have preceded me, that perhaps there is not much that I might add that would assist in the proper solution of the great question of the disposition of the remaining public domain. However, if I might say just the least thing that would help I would certainly feel that my time has been well spent, and that it was perhaps worth the patience of the committee and the gentlemen present in hearing me for a few minutes.

The proper solution of this public-land question would have a very good effect and stabilizing effect upon the livestock industry. In the first place the sheepmen-I am going to speak generally of the sheep business-the sheepmen are generally concerned and at all

times striving to keep the cost of production in line or proportionate with the price at which we must sell our product. And stabilizing this range problem will have a great effect not only upon the cost of production and the increased production of both wool and lambs but, as I perhaps stated before, would have a great tendency to stabilize generally the industry.

I might go back a few years to show, if I can, the difference in the conditions with which we are confronted to-day and the conditions of 18 years ago, when I started in the sheep business. At that time there were many large sheep owners in my part of New Mexico who were running from 20,000 to 30,000 head of sheep with a ranch investment of only $5,000, perhaps only one permanent watering. They were able to do this because of the fact that there were a lot of surplus ranges upon which the sheepman might range many miles from his ranch, especially during the winter months, where he was able to water from snow; that is, many times it was my experience that my sheep never came into my headquarters ranch for three and four months, being out on the ranges that were perfectly fresh; there would be no ranches in that territory; the range was not bothered in the seasons of the year when the grass was growing. And naturally we are confronted to-day with a range expense much larger than at that time.

Now, since those ranges have been taken up-and I think I am going to speak now from a practical standpoint, because my ranches have always been in the open-range country, with perhaps a few school sections leased. To illustrate my point, if I can, the ranges have been so taken up to-day that I have neighbors on all sides of the ranches that can come over and trespass upon my range any time they wish. Because of the fact that the ranges are scarce, ranch investments are naturally very high.

Now, in leasing these lands, giving the preference right, of course, to the present owners of the waterings, you will enable the sheepman to raise a better lamb crop and get more wool off of his sheep. However, it takes, in my humble judgment, about twice as many sections to run sheep to-day as many sheepmen figure that it will take. Some of my neighbors this past year who controlled their ranges through State leases raised from 80 to 85 per cent lamb crops because they were not overstocked, and could set aside a certain number of sections of grass that they saved upon which they could lamb these herds.

Unless you can save a sufficient number of sections to lamb your sheep a man is practically out of the sheep business.

Now, it is also my opinion that they are charging too much for these lands. Instead of running 150 sheep to the section in my country, as it is generally believed, you should have two sections for 150 sheep in order to take care of your flocks properly.

Now, while I am in favor of the leasing of the remaining public domain by the Government in preference to any other system at this time, I hope that the charges will not be excessive.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. As to that phase of the situation, you recognize, of course, that some land is worth more than other land. Would you leave it to the administration at Washington to fix the fees?

Mr. MILLER. I presume we would have to, Senator; but may I ask you a question at this point? I understand that if the Congress of the United States should pass a law whereby the Government would administer and lease the remaining public domain, that the lands are to be classified; that the lands that are adaptable for farming are to be segregated. Am I correct in that assumption, Senator?

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, there have been all sorts of proposals. Under the so-called Finney bill all homestead laws are practically to be repealed, except that provision is made that the lands may be classified and permitted to be entered for homestead purposes where they will grow crops other than grasses or forage crops. That proposal I think would be applicable to very little land that is left in the public domain in New Mexico. And that is the only classification that I have known of that has been proposed.

Mr. MILLER. Well, I would not be in favor of the Government leasing us these lands subject to the homesteader filing on our leases. I don't think you are getting anywhere then. I think if there are any public lands left in New Mexico that are fit lands for farming purposes they certainly should be segregated in this bill, and that when you make a lease to a livestock man it should be for not less than 10 years, and he must know that he is going to have it for 10 years and nobody is going to take it away from him. But I know of but few lands in New Mexico left, Senator, that are fit for farming purposes.

And another thing I think about the homestead proposition, that if lands are fit for agricultural purposes, 160 acres are about all that one man can handle. Now, there may be a few lands in the eastern part of the State where the farmer might get by on 640 acres and run a few cattle, as you stated awhile ago, but lands on which a man could make a living are very scarce. And the only place that a man can make a success out of a small bunch of cattle is where he can raise a lot of feed.

But you have noticed perhaps, Senator, that just over the line from Texas, around from Clovis north into Texas, there, it is true, those people raise a good many cattle in small bunches. But you notice also that they do not farm very much of the land. They haven't any use for it.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, in order to classify these lands at all it would necessitate work over a considerable period, would it not?

Mr. MILLER. I don't know about that, Senator, how much time it would take; but if you were engaged either in the cattle or sheep business, and you were to apply to the Government for a lease, I am quite sure you would not feel very secure if you could let the homesteader come in and take it away from you. To develop the country you would have to know that you had this for a long tenure or you would not want to put any improvements on it.

Senator JONES of New Mexico. Well, that section homestead law has been in effect now for 10 or 12 years, and the lands of the West are not yet classified under that, all of them. A considerable amount in New Mexico has never been classified.

Mr. MILLER. Well, I might state at this point here, Senator, some experiences I have had with the 640-acre homesteads and the gentlemen who took them up. On the best ranch that I owned three